First Opinions, Critics and Doubts...

Mikungfu

Mikungfu

Active member
Hi, after having started testing the camera, using the operation manuals volumes 01 and 02 (still haven't bought Barry's book), here is my first feedback based on some issues I found and some questions I can't find answers too.

#1: Arrgh! If the 14-140 lumis lens is supposed to be the best you can get out of Auto-Focus with the AF101, then I am really starting to tremble. If I leave the camera still on a tripod, pointing at some direction where nothing moves at all, the value of the focus on the display keeps going back and forth unable to settle. Not to mention of course that it usually takes a long time to readjust focus when I move the camera to some different distance target. Another issue is that is I focus manually and then move the zoom rapidly, there seems to be an instant where the image becomes unfocused and then focused again. It's already a neussance not to have electric zoom in this camera, for an even zoom action... It's also anoying that the zoom in this lens is a bit stiff. But to have these focus problems associated is really sad.
Blame me... But I love using zooms for story-telling. I know I can now use shallow DOF for that but I still want to use zooming a lot.

#2: Channel 1 and Channel 2 are mono, right? What will happen if I connect a stereo device to one of the channels? Will I loose half the sound or will it be converted to mono? Also, the built in Micro is stereo... If I was to connect an external stereo Mic to one of the channels, will it only record Mono, or what will happen?
Finally, can the sound from channels 1 and 2 be separated in post, on a NLE software or Audio Editing software?

#3: I still get some grain/noise in the shadows and when light is low... What setting may I tweak to fight this? I've tried using the maximum ISO... And open Iris. Should I lower the aperture/Iris, since I'm using Cine-Like D?

I'll be sure to post further concerns here, as I stumble upon them. I am not toooo experient so, I may ask occasional stupid questions too...
 
Mikungfu said:
It's already a neussance not to have electric zoom in this camera, for an even zoom action.
Click to expand...

Here, here. Even the big boys like Sony CineAlta and Panasonic's own VariCam have the capability of servo zoom. Let's stop making cameras without such basic features, shall we, Jan?
 
Sigh.

This is primarily a cinema camera, meant for either using DSLR glass or PL glass.

If you want a servo lens then this is not the camera for you.
 
Jim Simon said:
Here, here. Even the big boys like Sony CineAlta and Panasonic's own VariCam have the capability of servo zoom. Let's stop making cameras without such basic features, shall we, Jan?
Click to expand...

You're using a lens that doesn't have servo zoom anyway. Like Matt said, it's primarily a cinema camera.
 
#1: Arrgh! If the 14-140 lumis lens is supposed to be the best you can get out of Auto-Focus with the AF101, then I am really starting to tremble. If I leave the camera still on a tripod, pointing at some direction where nothing moves at all, the value of the focus on the display keeps going back and forth unable to settle. Not to mention of course that it usually takes a long time to readjust focus when I move the camera to some different distance target. Another issue is that is I focus manually and then move the zoom rapidly, there seems to be an instant where the image becomes unfocused and then focused again. It's already a neussance not to have electric zoom in this camera, for an even zoom action... It's also anoying that the zoom in this lens is a bit stiff. But to have these focus problems associated is really sad.
Blame me... But I love using zooms for story-telling. I know I can now use shallow DOF for that but I still want to use zooming a lot.
Click to expand...

If you are on a shot where nothing moves, turn autofocus OFF. If you need to make a zoom, do what the cine guys do... manually move the lens. You might try one of these: Panasonic DMW-ZL1 Zoom Lever. I found one for $22 from videodirect.com (cheaper than B&H)

#2: Channel 1 and Channel 2 are mono, right? What will happen if I connect a stereo device to one of the channels? Will I loose half the sound or will it be converted to mono? Also, the built in Micro is stereo... If I was to connect an external stereo Mic to one of the channels, will it only record Mono, or what will happen?
Finally, can the sound from channels 1 and 2 be separated in post, on a NLE software or Audio Editing software?
Click to expand...

If you connect ANY stereo device to only ONE channel, it will no longer be "stereo"... and yes, you can separate the sound in Premier or Soundbooth.


#3: I still get some grain/noise in the shadows and when light is low... What setting may I tweak to fight this? I've tried using the maximum ISO... And open Iris. Should I lower the aperture/Iris, since I'm using Cine-Like D?

I'll be sure to post further concerns here, as I stumble upon them. I am not toooo experient so, I may ask occasional stupid questions too...
Click to expand...

Faster Lens perhaps?... and no such thing as a "stupid question".... close, but technically no such thing.
 
Jim Simon said:
Here, here. Even the big boys like Sony CineAlta and Panasonic's own VariCam have the capability of servo zoom. Let's stop making cameras without such basic features, shall we, Jan?
Click to expand...

A servo zoom is not a basic feature to many of us ( including me).

Jim. Just buy one of those that do provide your basic features .

You rail on about what you want and need but you are self limiting in your "ideal" expectations. If it isnt the camera ... it will be the fact that the video and audio are not in a single stream.

Move forward because no one is listening to your lone voice in the "brave new world wilderness"
 
3: Noise can be reduced by using B.Press or Cinelike V gamma. Norm 2 Matrix seams to have the least amount of noise and Detail lower than 0 smooths it out. The camera has some noise, but so does every other video camera.
 
So, I'd say #2 and #3 are considerably solved. Thanks to all and to Editman in particular, for the guidance in solving the noise issues.

About #1, the zoom issue is also more or less solved, but not the focus issue. Let me explain:

mcgeedigital said:
This is primarily a cinema camera, meant for either using DSLR glass or PL glass.
If you want a servo lens then this is not the camera for you.
Click to expand...
Mike@AF said:
You're using a lens that doesn't have servo zoom anyway. Like Matt said, it's primarily a cinema camera.
Click to expand...
It's not like I would subscribe to the 'tone' Jim used to address his concern to Jan here... I think this is a great camera and I am most thankful to Jan and to Panasonic.
But having said that, I will not be thinking this is not the camera for me just because there is one particular missing feature I'd like to see present. Unless we start believing that every camera is perfect... They just may not be for some people. No camera is perfect and I'm more than willing to accept that. But that doesn't mean a camera can't be improved, or that it wouldn't benefit from a certain feature addition.

Actually, it wouldn't be the first cinema camera with servo zoom but, despite that, I think this is not about labeling cameras as "cinema" or "video" cameras... Now, that would be limiting things. This camera is a bit of a blend of both IMHO so, hoping to have servo zoom in some lens sometime in the future, or lamenting it doesn't have it now, doesn't make me wrong for the camera nor the camera wrong for me. I had two Canon XL-H1 for a long time and if I was to think that way, I would have thought they were not for me because they had 24F instead of 24P.

Multi-Media said:
If you are on a shot where nothing moves, turn autofocus OFF. If you need to make a zoom, do what the cine guys do... manually move the lens. You might try one of these: Panasonic DMW-ZL1 Zoom Lever. I found one for $22 from videodirect.com (cheaper than B&H)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice about the zoom, I will certainly check that out. About your advice for focus, it doesn't solve the problem because this is not so much about something moving in the shot... Even if nothing moves in the shot, every time I do a pan or tilt, I will be continuously filming things at different distances and, it will be almost impossible to keep everything on focus manually. Imagine you're filming a long room. You place the camera in one corner and start shooting in front, and then you pan all the way to the end of the room. There are tables, chairs, objects, pictures... All those will be moving further and further away as I pan. I bought the 14-140 lens believing it would be a good lens for these situations because of it's autofocus. It turns out I keep loosing focus.

That and of course the issue I also mentioned of it loosing focus when the zoom is fast. It's strange because I zoom close, I focus manually and when I zoom away quickly, it unfocus the image in the first half second or so... Has anyone experienced this?
 
As far as #1 goes, I believe the issue with the zoom change/focus no holding on the 14-140 is a known issue and there's supposed to be a firmware update coming for either the AF100 or the lens or both to fix that.

One thing you can try is switch the camera to manual focus. When you want it to autofocus for you, press in the PUSH AUTO button and let it focus for you. When it gets what you want in focus let go of the button and since you're in manual focus mode it won't lose your focus unless the subject moves out of the dof.

Also, if it's a person that you're trying to focus on you can try using the face detect feature and that should help it stay focused on the person. Set one of the user buttons to FACE DETECT and turn FACE FRAMING on... all in the SW MODE menu.
 
Well not that I can contribute much (or anything really) to this thread, but the issues being discussed over the auto focus are the reason I really wish someone would post up some test footage using nothing fancy...just the 14-140 in auto focus run and gun type settings.

I think there may be some people (and I certainly could be just wrong) that will/would like to use the AF100 in a setting or situation that would lend itself more to a tradition eng style camera. To those people, how the 14-140 is going to perform would be nice to know.

And yes I do know that the AF100 is really not set up for that. And I agree. But, that doesn't (or at least might not) preclude someone from using the camera that way on occasion.

Either way, I would just like to see some footage with the 14-140 in a run and gun auto focus zoom pan ENG like setting...just to see where it falls in line. Anyone got any?

Regards,

G.
 
ProAmateur said:
Well not that I can contribute much (or anything really) to this thread, but the issues being discussed over the auto focus are the reason I really wish someone would post up some test footage using nothing fancy...just the 14-140 in auto focus run and gun type settings.

I think there may be some people (and I certainly could be just wrong) that will/would like to use the AF100 in a setting or situation that would lend itself more to a tradition eng style camera. To those people, how the 14-140 is going to perform would be nice to know.

And yes I do know that the AF100 is really not set up for that. And I agree. But, that doesn't (or at least might not) preclude someone from using the camera that way on occasion.

Either way, I would just like to see some footage with the 14-140 in a run and gun auto focus zoom pan ENG like setting...just to see where it falls in line. Anyone got any?

Regards,

G.
Click to expand...
I'll try to upload some as soon as possible.
 
Full size video cameras that I have owned with interchangeable lenses have never had auto focus. It was only with the introduction of smaller mid size cams with built in lenses that "pro" (really prosumer, I hate these labels, but they kind of apply) cameras started to include auto focus.

I personally never use auto focus on any video camera, I like to know exactly what the camera is doing. I never use auto iris either. I believe this is the best most professional way to work. I have done so since the 70's. Now on still cameras I do use auto focus a lot, but there it really works because you only shoot 1 shot.

I have seen many shots ruined because something moved, even a bird flying through a shot and the cam changes focus. The same with auto iris, something light or dark enters the scene and the iris hunts, very ugly.

I think the best policy is to learn how to focus and control the iris by hand, not rely on the camera to do it for you. This is only my opinion, but quite a few pros will agree with this as well.

I am not saying you are not a pro if you use auto something. But if you like being in control and if you want to improve your shooting, work on mastering these skills, it soon becomes second nature. I know some very pro shooters that like to use auto focus on long shots in sports and I don't want to start a debate here with them. I am just expressing my opinion.
 
olof said:
I think the best policy is to learn how to focus and control the iris by hand, not rely on the camera to do it for you. This is only my opinion, but quite a few pros will agree with this as well.

I am not saying you are not a pro if you use auto something. But if you like being in control and if you want to improve your shooting, work on mastering these skills, it soon becomes second nature. I know some very pro shooters that like to use auto focus on long shots in sports and I don't want to start a debate here with them. I am just expressing my opinion.
Click to expand...

Nodding my head in agreement...
 
Jumping in with a little advice for controlling your camera and directing the Auto Focus. The Function knob can be assigned to iris and focus functionality. Then you can direct the camera to look at a specific area for for both functions by pushing on the function button, locating where you want the camera to look and then pushing it again so the target is yellow.

If you have the OIS enabled on a tripod mounted camera you are begging for a problem and the camera will always be hunting.

Hope this helps,

Jan
 
olof said:
Full size video cameras that I have owned with interchangeable lenses have never had auto focus. It was only with the introduction of smaller mid size cams with built in lenses that "pro" (really prosumer, I hate these labels, but they kind of apply) cameras started to include auto focus.
Click to expand...
I've had Canon XL-2 and Canon XL-H1. They had interchangeable lenses and auto-focus. whether you would call these pro or prosumer cameras it's a matter of conventions but, I'd say they had pretty professional performances and applyances.

olof said:
I personally never use auto focus on any video camera, I like to know exactly what the camera is doing. I never use auto iris either. I believe this is the best most professional way to work.
Click to expand...
Not using autofocus should be a prerrogative, not an enforced condition. I respect and agree that true professionals (specially coming from areas and times where manual focus usage has been the norm) would use everything manual. In fact, it displays a superior level of expertise, customization and control over their tools. All I'm saying is that in this day and age, there is nothing keeping cameras from having both choices, allowing different ways of working. Your example of sports is just one of many good examples where focusing manually is as pertinent and useful, as showing that you can. Imagine shooting football at ground level in manual focus... Very artistic but definitely a herculian effort in style, and totally overkill.

olof said:
I think the best policy is to learn how to focus and control the iris by hand, not rely on the camera to do it for you. This is only my opinion, but quite a few pros will agree with this as well.
Click to expand...
I agree this should be mastered if you want to be a skilled professional. I don't agree you need AF removed from your camera in order to do this. You don't need to remove the net, in order to walk on a wire without falling. It's always good to know the net is there in case you need it.

olof said:
I don't want to start a debate here with them. I am just expressing my opinion.
Click to expand...
What is a debate but an exchange of opinions. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
Mikungfu said:
I

All I'm saying is that in this day and age, there is nothing keeping cameras from having both choices, allowing different ways of working.
Click to expand...

I think the expectation that technology is so far advanced that everything should be do-able and do-able at a super cheap price instantly is…. flawed.
I think the more salient point to the auto focus discussion with regards to the AF100 is that there are no other micro 4/3 video cameras on the market (dedicated - don't start with the GH1/2 argument) and therefore the market hasn't yet developed for a micro 4/3 autofocus & or servo zoom lens. I'm sure that the market will be there and these lenses will appear over time. But will you pay for them? You also need to remember that the sensor size here is much larger than the other video cameras with auto focus - af100 is dealing with a shallower DOF making perfect autofocus an order of magnitude harder.

It's not the right camera for every job.
 
You have to give it all time. This is THE first generation of video cameras to combine video/cinema lens technology. The closest thing before that is going back to our HVX200 and an adaptor for the lens. This is a HUGE step forward. I was shooting things yesterday with the AF100 handheld that I could never do with an HVX/Letus set-up. Not to mention the light loss from the adaptor.
 
These are a couple of the more moderately priced cine zooms that you could rig out nicely with a zoom motor, but unfortunately its going to cost more than the camera.

Red pro zoom 17-50 2.9 $6,000.00 or
Red pro zoom 18-85 2.9 $9,975.00

Preston Microforce V+F3 Control $2,350.00 plus Heden M26VE Digital Servo Motor $2,210 plus cables, batteries, gear ring.
 
Mikungfu said:
Not to mention of course that it usually takes a long time to readjust focus when I move the camera to some different distance target. Another issue is that is I focus manually and then move the zoom rapidly, there seems to be an instant where the image becomes unfocused and then focused again. It's already a neussance not to have electric zoom in this camera, for an even zoom action... It's also anoying that the zoom in this lens is a bit stiff. But to have these focus problems associated is really sad.
Blame me... But I love using zooms for story-telling. I know I can now use shallow DOF for that but I still want to use zooming a lot.

...
Click to expand...

I find it perplexing that people called for video cameras with large sensors so they can use their DSLR lenses, then complain these same lenses don't have features from video camera lenses. Specifically, servo zooms. I don't know how many times I've heard this complaint on these, and other forums. I don't understand - those who deride the lack of servo zooms must surely realize DSLRs don't need them?

Panasonic has answered the demand for a large sensor, DSLR lens capable, true video camera. It's what everyone's been begging for, and yet the camera is critisized (by some) for not having a feature that doesn't exist. It's like buying a 2-seat sports car, then complaining to the manufacturer that there's no room for back-seat passengers. Surely they knew the limitations when they bought the product? If someone must have a servo zoom lens, then the AF100 isn't for them. That's the reason I'm not looking at the AF100 for now. A power zoom is more useful for my shooting needs than tighter depth of field.

In regards to auto focus, this feature doesn't even exist on broadcast cameras. Is it something that DSLR zoom lenses must have? Does changing the zoom range also change the focus point?
 
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