First Look, Panasonic AG-AC90 at DVExpo West

Hey Jim

I was trying to figure what you made the base from!! Very clever!! It shows that often something that you might throw out can easily find a new home elsewhere!! I have amassed a whole bunch of camera rigs and I have a website with some pics you might be interested in...Cos the tutorials themselves go to a commercial site, I'm not allowed to post it here but I'll PM you the link later..you might find some other ideas there.

Keep up the good work

Chris
 
Hi Barry_Green and Jan_Crittenden (Panasonic)

I sincerely hope you have a minute (or two ;-) for some questions

I have tested the demo AG- AC90 ( i made the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T7hHxDh5OcM )

After analyzing the ACHD files we know: 28Mbps with 24-frame GOP IPB. The AC90's AVCHD encoder used 4x4 and 8x8 quantizer matrices, such as the AF100 and GH3. After some*forum discussions ( personal-view.com ), we have some technical questions about the AG-AC90: (that are not available online) **


1. Is there exact data on the dynamic range of the camera?
2. What is the resolution of the electronic viewfinder?
3. Because there was limited time to test the AC90, we didn't go deep into the sound. (which is very important of course). Is the same technology / are the same pre-amps used *as in the AC130 / AC 160?

4. Normally cheaper (undressed) models are less good as the more expensive ones, but is it correct that the AC90 uses newer technology as the AC130 / 160? and therefor in many ways is better? For example the BIS 3MOS sensor is better in low light, better 5 axes OIS, etc*
Is it true that this same new technology will also be used in the successors of the AC160 etc.?

5. Various Panasonic websites write *different information about the used sensor. Sometimes it says *1/4 inch 3MOS and sometimes 1/4.7 3MOS.
We assume (and I sincerely hope) that the smaller 1/4.7 is an error, because that would mean that this camera has even a smaller sensor than the consumer HC-X900

6. Several people say that the same sensor and components are used as the X900. About the X900 we know : "The Advanced 3MOS sensor employs a pixel-shifting technology to achieve the equivalent of four times the pixel count of Full HD." So is this also the case for the AC90?

7. It has no ND filter (only electronic perhaps? )
So if i want DOF in daylight I need to put a variable ND for the lens, but it will be impossible to turn, as the lens hood can not be removed, right? ( this really s*cks)
Any solution for this?

Many thanks!!
 
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solutions said:
Jan_Crittenden (Panasonic)
I have tested the demo AG- AC90 ( i made the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T7hHxDh5OcM )
1. Is there exact data on the dynamic range of the camera?
Click to expand...

There is not a specification for this. Additionally I really question the choice of cameras in this test. It is a lot like comparing Apples and Potatoes. Both have a use, but different. These two cameras, the GH2 and likely the GH3 and the AC90 are two absolutely different types of cameras. You need to decide what you need to do with the camera. If you need a run and gun camera, the AC90 is a clear winner over a DSLR. If you need to have that shallow depth of field and are up for all of the workarounds to make that work, including the audio and potential Aliasing, etc, then the choice is clear.

solutions said:
2. What is the resolution of the electronic viewfinder?
Click to expand...

Monitor: 8.8 cm ( 3.5 inches) wide LCD monitor (Approx. 1152 K dots)
Viewfinder: 0.61 cm (0.24 inches) wide EVF (Approx. 263 K dots)


solutions said:
3. Because there was limited time to test the AC90, we didn't go deep into the sound. (which is very important of course). Is the same technology / are the same pre-amps used *as in the AC130 / AC 160?

I would say since they are made in two different factories they may well be different. But they do sound good.


solutions said:
4. Normally cheaper (undressed) models are less good as the more expensive ones, but is it correct that the AC90 uses newer technology as the AC130 / 160? and therefor in many ways is better? For example the BIS 3MOS sensor is better in low light, better 5 axes OIS, etc*
Is it true that this same new technology will also be used in the successors of the AC160 etc.?
Click to expand...

This is not something that I would say as there are features in the 160A/130A that the 90 does not have. I would ay the low light performance would be similar i.e 1/4 BSI vs 1/3". The OIS on the 90 is not possible on the longer lens that is on the 160/130. Laws of physics you know.

solutions said:
5. Various Panasonic websites write *different information about the used sensor. Sometimes it says *1/4 inch 3MOS and sometimes 1/4.7 3MOS.
We assume (and I sincerely hope) that the smaller 1/4.7 is an error, because that would mean that this camera has even a smaller sensor than the consumer HC-X900
Click to expand...

I believe it is 1/4.7 but the technology drivers seems to make this a moot point. And it is not totally clear if they are taking that measurement from the effective pixel area, which I am assuming or what, versus the size of the actual imager. If you look at the video you should be able to tell whether to picture is acceptable or not. That is key.


solutions said:
6. Several people say that the same sensor and components are used as the X900. About the X900 we know : "The Advanced 3MOS sensor employs a pixel-shifting technology to achieve the equivalent of four times the pixel count of Full HD." So is this also the case for the AC90?
Click to expand...

Couldn't tell you whether it is or it is not. The Spatial offset/pixelshift technology is part of this chip set though.

solutions said:
7. It has no ND filter (only electronic perhaps? )
So if i want DOF in daylight I need to put a variable ND for the lens, but it will be impossible to turn, as the lens hood can not be removed, right? ( this really s*cks)
Any solution for this?
Click to expand...

As with any camera, you have to outfit for what you need and what it does not have, and while it does have ND in it you cannot control it, it is AUTO. So you would need screw-in filters(49mm). The lens hood does not come off. So if you need a camera with a removable hood and built-in ND, I have to point out that you need to look at more expensive cameras or deal with the realiy of screw in filters, and live with the lens hood that is there. In this industry you buy the camera that fits your needs, if that one is too expensive, you look at the lesser priced cameras and strategize the work-arounds.


Hope this helps,

Jan
Click to expand...
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
I would not bet on this possibility. It isn't going to happen. How do I know? I argued for it. It was a fairly heated discussion, well at least on my side. You can get a lot of time on the SD cards, up to 6 hours. However, I am not sure I would want more than an hour or two on any single SD card. I argued for 720P, not for time but for format, I have a number of customers that use 720P as their in-house standard.

Best,

Jan

Best,

Jan
Click to expand...
Now i belong to the group which buy a camera and put it at 720/50 and forget that function for ever. I was looking for a third camera to replace my GH1 & GH2 which i have been using as third cameras, but are nightmares in recoding live concerts. It seems that i have to step up or look for another camera to use with my AC130 and HMC151. I may be wrong, but i think i read somewhere where Barry says that the HMC151 has its sweet spot in just the 720 and at the same time if we take Barry's explanation that 720 and 1080 have no effect on the card size, my next question would be, what is the effect on the editing side, do they behave the same? or more power and space will be needed for the 1080?
 
JAN : THANK YOU SO MUCH ! Short reply

- I know the GH2 vs AC90 is like apples vs pears. I combined them both in the test, because I have a GH2 and was looking for an ENG camera to combine it with. I think this will work together.

- Okay sensor size does not matter too much as long as the image is good.

- ND; I know I would need to look for a more expensive camera with ND, and I would not mind, but then there are other cons (older technology, worse OIS, is that worth it for me? I don't think so) I have never had a camera where the lenshood can not be removed, so I will just have to find a workaround for that (probably a variable ND) or perhaps saw off the lenshood, the first day I get the camera ;-)

- About the Z10000: So exactly the same, only USD 1500 more for 3D option…. hmmm
THANKS!
 
PANASONIC AC 90 VS CANON XA10 or XF100

PANASONIC AC 90 VS CANON XA10 or XF100

Bob,

How do you think the image quality/video quality of the Panasonic AG90 will compare with the Canon XA10 or XF100? Which would produce better video suited for web videos or small indie shoots?

Thanks.




BobDiaz said:
As I'm writing this, I'm crunching the video I shot of Jan Crittenden Livigston, from Panasonic, today at DVExpo regarding the AC90 camera. Jan was nice enough to sit down with me, let me "play" with the camera, and show me the features. In addition I have a card with 6 clips I shot with the camera at the show. However, I'm pressed to get ready for class right now, so I can only give you a little information now and a lot more later on...

The first thing that jumps out at me is the image stabilization system in the camera. When I was in my 30s, I could hold a camera reasonably steady, but today I'm a lot older and stink at handheld shots. (Sorry, but may hands aren't as steady as they used to be.) The HMC-40 has OIS, but it's limited as to how much it can do; it helps, but not enough for me. The 5 axes image stabilization system on the AC90 is amazing. At wide angle it overcomes my shake and holds very well even at the half way zoom point. At maximum telephoto, I'm a bit too much for it, but I can see that the system helps to reduce the shake I have.

When I get a chance to upload the 6 clips I shot from the camera to VIMEO, you will see that the last clip I wasn't waving the camera around like crazy, but pointed it at Jan as she talked about the camera. Take a good look at that part of the clip, it's VERY stable!!! You'll be able to download the source clip if you are signed up to VIMEO and if you play it on your HDTV, look at Jan's hair closely, the image is VERY sharp. I played all 6 clips on my HDTV and they look great.


Unlike the HMC40, the AC90 has 3 rings on the lens that allow you to adjust focus, zoom, and iris. Very nice, no flipping a switch to pick two of the three items. I love how the audio volume controls are now on the side of the camera and XLR is built into the camera. You have 3 User defined buttons on the AND 4 more on the LCD. The camera has 2 slots so that you have the option of recording to one slot, record the same to both slots, or switch when full. Be aware, that switch when full will drop about a second of so of video.

The camera is using an improved MOS sensor, which should give you about 1 stop improvement over the HMC40. I understand that Barry Green will be testing out the AC90, so we'll get the word from him as to the difference. It should prove interesting as gain increases to see how the two compare.

Right now my brain is a bit scrambled because I have do prepare for my class tonight and at the same time I want to get the video up ASAP. Subject to how fast things work, I may or may now have the video ready in time before class.... If not, than late tonight I'll post the video. (Remember I'm in California.)

However, I did want to tell you that IF you are about to purchase a new camera in around the $2,000 range, the AC90 is worth considering!!!



Bob Diaz
Click to expand...
 
I can address the XA10 only, the AC90 is much quieter with a lot more resolution and more powerful OIS. And that hits the high points.
 
ralphps2000 said:
Bob,

How do you think the image quality/video quality of the Panasonic AG90 will compare with the Canon XA10 or XF100? Which would produce better video suited for web videos or small indie shoots?

Thanks.
Click to expand...


I want you to know that I'm not ignoring your questtion, but I have not played with the Canon XA10 or XF100 and I can't comment on such a comparison.

All I can say is, I was very impressed with the Panasonic AC90.


Bob Diaz
 
ralphps2000 said:
Bob,

How do you think the image quality/video quality of the Panasonic AG90 will compare with the Canon XA10 or XF100? Which would produce better video suited for web videos or small indie shoots?

Thanks.
Click to expand...


Just from what we have seen so far, the AC90 is looking better than the XA10 in terms of resolution and detail. Both of these camcorders are selling for the exact same price, and it sure seems that the AC90 is going to deliver a lot more functionality and features for the same money.

I own and use the Canon Vixia HF G10, which is the consumer camcorder that the XA10 is based on. It has the exact same lens, same single 1/3 sensor, and same codec, so its image quality is identical. However, these Canon camcorders lack all of the professional controls and settings that the AC90 has to offer. About the only advantage they have is that they are very small and thus less obtrusive. Here is a short video that I shot handheld with my HF G10 this week, if you want to compare this image quality to the AC90. This was shot indoors late in the afternoon. Fortunately the room had some pretty good sized windows to let light in.


https://vimeo.com/51336299


The face detect feature on these Canons does work very well in keeping Autofocus focused on a subject, as you can see in this video. The White balance is super easy to set and fine tune as well. And the image stabilization is quite good. At 60, I'm certainly not the steadiest handheld shooter, not by any means. But despite this video being shot handheld, the image stabilization really kept the footage very calm and smooth.
 
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LanceOregon said:
I own and use the Canon Vixia HF G10, which is the consumer camcorder that the XA10 is based on. It has the exact same lens, same single 1/3 sensor, and same codec, so its image quality is identical.
Click to expand...
The XA10 has 30P and the HFG10 ONLY 60i AND 24 P am I right ?
they have is that they are very small and thus less obtrusive, That is why I like better the HMC40.
The XA10 mostly control by Menu, very few physical buttons, which is a pain.
Here a Review that can clear many questions if good for any one

 
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The XA10 and HF G10 have identical recording options. There are only two differences between these two camcorders:

1) The XA10 has 64 GB of built in memory, while the HF G10 only has 32 GB
2) The XA10 comes with an additional detachable grip that also holds XLR audio inputs

That is why I bought the HF G10 instead. Canon has an excellent DM-100 Stereo shotgun mic for the HF G10 that costs $180 Add that to the $1,300 price of the HF G10, and you can have a complete camcorder for $1,480 With the XA10, you have to first spend $1,999, and then you still have to buy a shotgun mic on top of that.

The main problem these Canon camcorders face is that they just have an advanced consumer camcorder interface and set of controls. There is a focus ring for manual focusing. And then a custom dial on the back that can adjust things like your shutter speed, iris, and gain, depending on the shooting mode that you are in. But nothing remotely like what the AC90 offers.
 
Well after an extensive thinking, on how to invest some money in another camera, I'm proud to recognize how clever I was back in 2010 investing in the HMC40, and how evolution has not been
the way I would like, among all brands no camera gives you the relation size pro design the HMC40 gives you, XA10 is more a consumer camera with an acceptable image.
Of course high production quality images now and each they more and more will be done with big chip cameras, the GH3 I just preorder only $ 1300 capable of feature film images.
This traditional video cameras will have a place of course for any Pro videographer, but when you have the time and condition for the work around from the big chip cameras they are Queens.
Panasonic is an excellent brand , and will highly request them from the most humble of their clients, my self. Keep the size down, keep modularity like the HMC40, put or take off what you need depending on
the assignment, that is really valuable. The perfect upgrade for the HMC40 would be : KEEP THE SIZE AND MODULAR DESIGN, higher bitrate, larger LCD screen, 1080 60P, OIS like the AC90, 4:2:2 color space
More than glad to pay up to $ 3000 for a camera like that. Batteries why not to think that people using HMC40 will like to use the same batteries more considering that they are capable of powering
The AC130, or AF100. Now in these days no body want to waste money , I mean dropping batteries with an entire life to come to the trash. One of the things that got me from Panasonic was to see how
the evolution from the DVC30 to the HMC40 tried to give continuity to the line different to other brands where the upgrades mean putting money in the trash.
Well that said hope to see an upgrade to the HMC40 and NOT a AC90. Too many options for the most humble of your clients, but don't forget that dollars are made from penny s.
Jan and Barry are very kind people, but this message goes to the Headquarters at Osaka, the people who pays for their work and kind customer service.
Felipe
Bye Bye
 
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This is right in my budget and looks to be about what I need. Plus I can use my DVX100b batteries. So will it work with my MacBook Pro and Final Cut Pro 6? I don't want to be converting and all that I just want to pop the card in the Mac and import. Tell me if that is possible.
 
I'm a "newbie" and my first post here, so please excuse any protocol goofs. I've been following this thread for a while and find the post very informative. I'm also a "newbie" to the video world, but have been shooting stills, both film and digital, with Nikon gear for years. I've been experimenting with my D7000 video capabilities, but it's not going to meet my needs for what I want to do. I'm looking to advance my video skills and want purchase a video camera for shooting outdoor footage of landscapes, seascapes, and various outdoor activities. Many of the features on the AG-AC90 indicate I should give this camera some serious consideration. I like the advanced OIS feature on this camera, as I too am in that age category that could use some help in creating a steady shot. The deeper DOF with a smaller sensor and the auto focus seem to be a plus to me as well. One area of concern is the ability to use a circular polarizer on this camera without being able to remove the lens hood.

I would very much appreciate any inputs that anyone on this thread can provide. Has anyone with "hands on time" shot any outdoor footage with this camera? I saw something posted on youtube today of a biplane supposedly shot with the AG-AC90 and it was really bad footage, hopefully not representative of this cameras capabilities.

Thank you,

Frank
 
FL Jones said:
I'm a "newbie" and my first post here, so please excuse any protocol goofs. I've been following this thread for a while and find the post very informative. I'm also a "newbie" to the video world, but have been shooting stills, both film and digital, with Nikon gear for years. I've been experimenting with my D7000 video capabilities, but it's not going to meet my needs for what I want to do. I'm looking to advance my video skills and want purchase a video camera for shooting outdoor footage of landscapes, seascapes, and various outdoor activities. Many of the features on the AG-AC90 indicate I should give this camera some serious consideration. I like the advanced OIS feature on this camera, as I too am in that age category that could use some help in creating a steady shot. The deeper DOF with a smaller sensor and the auto focus seem to be a plus to me as well. One area of concern is the ability to use a circular polarizer on this camera without being able to remove the lens hood.

I would very much appreciate any inputs that anyone on this thread can provide. Has anyone with "hands on time" shot any outdoor footage with this camera? I saw something posted on youtube today of a biplane supposedly shot with the AG-AC90 and it was really bad footage, hopefully not representative of this cameras capabilities.

Thank you,

Frank
Click to expand...
Since the camera is not out yet I doubt this is footage from the AC90…..I hope not!
 
FL Jones:

The camcorder does not start shipping in the USA until October 30th. So sample footage will be very hard to find. There are a couple of good examples posted earlier here in this thread. Did you view those? The video that member "solutions" made has a number of excellent outdoor scene examples in it. Within a few weeks of the camcorder being on sale, I'm sure that we will have a lot of people posting video online then.

Here is the video that solutions made with the camcorder:



 
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LanceOregon said:
FL Jones:

The camcorder does not start shipping in the USA until October 30th. So sample footage will be very hard to find. There are a couple of good examples posted earlier here in this thread. Did you view those? The video that member "solutions" made has a number of excellent outdoor scene examples in it. Within a few weeks of the camcorder being on sale, I'm sure that we will have a lot of people posting video online then.

Here is a new test video recently posted of the camcorder recording under low light conditions, to show how well it does in low light:


Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply and the sample clip.

Yes, I have reviewed all of the examples posted on the thread and I'm impressed with the indoor and low light video quality. I realize that the camera won't ship until the end of the month, and that the examples on the thread were done at trade shows or by someone who was lucky enough to get a demo camera for a few hours. Just wondering if one of those folks had the opportunity to shoot footage outdoors. I'm on the fence about pulling the trigger to pre-order one now or wait for the reviews and see what gets posted later on. I have an opportunity later in November where I could use the camera, that's why I'm trying to get more info now.
 
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