I think zacutos intention was to make this thing watchable. That said, there should be a place where you can see all the results.
First installment of SCCE shoot out to be released today...
- Thread starter Duke M.
- Start date
tom.wong
Well-known member
i think they said something about the releasing a blu ray of the complete test top to bottom. the thing everybody saw at the theater screenings. I hope it comes out soon! gonna a freshly calibrated plasma to watch it on in a matter of weeks
gonna take a few days to burn in though
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
I'm going nuts!
When I click on the website (and yes I tried IE, Firefox and Opera) all I see is that Vimeo screen that says "Sorry".
I can watch it with my phone, but it stops after 2 minutes.
Any ideas?
When I click on the website (and yes I tried IE, Firefox and Opera) all I see is that Vimeo screen that says "Sorry".
I can watch it with my phone, but it stops after 2 minutes.
Any ideas?
Barry_Green
Moderator
I don't know that they've released exactly what it was, it was probably a Cinedeck or something, but it was a top-end external recorder.
You guys really should give them the benefit of the doubt -- this was 140+ people working on this, with top-end folks calling the shots and making the decisions. They did it extremely right. I attended the screening and the Q&A session and these folks were grilled about what they'd done, and they had all the answers. Mike Curtis of HDForIndies would be a good one to ask as to exactly what equipment was used and what post process was used.
But, as an example, they used the same lens on every camera -- a 4K Fujinon, not the cheap Alura line, but the top-of-the-line best of the best. They used the exact same lens to eliminate any question of lenses making any difference in the image. And, they used a top-end SDI/HDMI recorder, and the same recorder for every camera, to eliminate any questions about codecs and whatever.
They did it as right as I have ever seen it done.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Ask Mike Curtis, I'm sure he can answer those questions.
You're questioning the methodology of the best of the best. Just relax and understand they did it right. For example -- they DIDN'T meter at all. This is digital cinema, not film. Nobody uses a light meter to set exposure, and Bob Primes ASC went on a kind of mini-rant to point out exactly why trying to do so is pointless. All exposure was set off waveform monitors -- the way it's supposed to be done. Except for film, of course, which was exposed based on metering.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I think that is a reasonable perspective. The SCCE, at the presentation I was at, was extremely forthcoming with every bit of technical info anyone could ask for. They had a Q&A session with 11 people up there, and were answering everything in every bit of detail that anyone asked. I don't know whether it's within the scope of Zacuto's doc to include such information, but it would be considerate of them to at least provide pointers to some reference document where the curious could go and get these answers.
For the many who are just seeing or hearing of this for the first time, I recognize that there are many potential questions. I had my curiousity satisfied by sitting through the SCCE's presentation in a room of 400+ people, and going through the Q&A session afterwards, and then personally discussing the results with dozens of people at the event and then afterwards at the CML party. Having been an organizer of multiple multi-camera "shootouts", I am convinced that these guys did it the "right" way, with the best understanding of how to do it, with the best scientific approach to minimize variables and deliver meaningful and useful comparisons.
Barry_Green
Moderator
It was discussed at the Q&A after the screening.
Because ... everything has SDI out, and those that don't (like the DSLRs) could use HDMI->HD-SDI. What's the problem with that?
Obviously the Red was handled differently. I really think that instead of trying to cast doubt on the results, you should really just ask the folks who can answer your questions best. They're not hiding. Start with Mike Curtis of HD For Indies, you can find him on provideocoalition.com.
Because Bob said that Zacuto had ZERO influence in anything. His exact words I cannot recall, but my recollection of them is: "Zacuto had nothing to do with this. They approached me about doing a test, and my response was: you can pay for it, and you can make a doc of it, but that's it. You will have no influence whatsoever in any decision that goes into it."
And my point is that YOU don't know. But you're out there making these assertions, casting aspersions on the people involved in the test, and really you're spreading fear and doubt. You don't know anything whatsoever about the SCCE. You weren't there, you don't know. And when people who were there, and who do know, try to give you answers -- you cast doubt again.
It's really kind of rude and I wish you'd stop it. Why not go ask Bob Primes, or Mike Curtis, or any of the 141+ people who were there, and get some answers, instead of just assuming the negative and trying to cast doubt on something you haven't even seen yet?
Barry_Green
Moderator
And there is, and will be. www.thescce.org. They've already stated that not only will their information be made available, but it will be put into the public domain.
tom.wong
Well-known member
there's a lot of questions for those of us who didn't get to go to the q&a, i wonder if there's a way to set up a thread to get these questions answered... I"m really curious on how they set exposure with cameras that have sweet spots of 800 iso rather than 320, and something like the f3 which can't even be dialed into 320. did they adjust lighting? stop down more? use ND? there's also a billion other questions, and speculation won't get anywhere. Barry, do you have any pull on maybe getting someone with the answers to join the boards for a bit?
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
Yeah, same here - meh.
Wow. You have to understand I am a documentarian and also trying to make a show that is watchable by the majority of people not just scientists/engineers like some here. Yes, I could have made it more scientific but it would have been less interesting and we always assumed this data would come out later in a white paper. All of this takes time and you need to be a little patient. Many of the manufacturers set there camera obviously as flat as possible and expected us to bring them back in post which we did. I can't tell you anything about how the testing was done because I truly wasn't involved and frankly that left me more time to work on my documentary. Bob did pick the cameras and why he picked 3 Canon cameras is a question for him. I would have liked to have fewer cameras because it would have made the show a little shorter but I think it was good because I noticed definite differences in the 5D and 7D that I didn't know about before and as a comparison to the more expensive cameras I think it gave us a nice benchmark.
You really need to hear me on this, THERE WAS NO ZACUTO INVOLVEMENT. I don't particularly care what the outcome is, I have no horse in this race, I shot my show with an F3, I have no bias towards cameras, I own all of them in my rental department and I use the right camera for the right job. Using an Alexa to do this docu would have been a pain in the ass, same with a DSLR. The F3 for this gig is quick and easy, allows me to get my shots without having to worry about not being in focus and missing the moment, plus good sound is a breeze with XLR jacks. Frankly, I've only used a DSLR on maybe one project when I was looking for Shallow DOF, it's not really a good camera for a docu, which is mostly what I make. But my opinion is irrelevant because I had no say nor did I want to. People buy DSLR's because they are cheap and and give them that filmic look that they are going for and that's not going to change. Commercial users will use the right camera for the right job because they have budget to do so. My background is entirely as a corporate/commercial user, picking the right camera for the right job and I make no bones about telling people that.
I can tell you that every camera if capable was recorded in native, Codex, s.Two OB1 which made for a lot of data over 1000 shots in phase one alone. I know that the SCCE plans on creating a white paper answering all of your questions, remember many are doing this as volunteers and some of this takes time. Feel free to see the SCCE website and or contact Bob about your questions. Http://scce.org
One final thing. Many of you do not know what ACES is. It's a new protocol developed by the motion picture academy for grading and it will be discussed in the future episodes and demonstrated. Keep and eye out for that, it give us an exact benchmark for aligning these cameras using data produced in the cameras. This part is very interesting and definitely the way things are going to be done in the future.
You really need to hear me on this, THERE WAS NO ZACUTO INVOLVEMENT. I don't particularly care what the outcome is, I have no horse in this race, I shot my show with an F3, I have no bias towards cameras, I own all of them in my rental department and I use the right camera for the right job. Using an Alexa to do this docu would have been a pain in the ass, same with a DSLR. The F3 for this gig is quick and easy, allows me to get my shots without having to worry about not being in focus and missing the moment, plus good sound is a breeze with XLR jacks. Frankly, I've only used a DSLR on maybe one project when I was looking for Shallow DOF, it's not really a good camera for a docu, which is mostly what I make. But my opinion is irrelevant because I had no say nor did I want to. People buy DSLR's because they are cheap and and give them that filmic look that they are going for and that's not going to change. Commercial users will use the right camera for the right job because they have budget to do so. My background is entirely as a corporate/commercial user, picking the right camera for the right job and I make no bones about telling people that.
I can tell you that every camera if capable was recorded in native, Codex, s.Two OB1 which made for a lot of data over 1000 shots in phase one alone. I know that the SCCE plans on creating a white paper answering all of your questions, remember many are doing this as volunteers and some of this takes time. Feel free to see the SCCE website and or contact Bob about your questions. Http://scce.org
One final thing. Many of you do not know what ACES is. It's a new protocol developed by the motion picture academy for grading and it will be discussed in the future episodes and demonstrated. Keep and eye out for that, it give us an exact benchmark for aligning these cameras using data produced in the cameras. This part is very interesting and definitely the way things are going to be done in the future.
These shootouts are really interesting, up to a point. (And big thanks to everyone involved in doing them).
For me the most illuminating graphic by far is the "range of exposure latitude compared with zero" graph. This is something that actually is of use on set when deciding how to use one of these cameras and even more so if you are mixing and matching different cameras.
As one of comments said with video you control the highlights and rely on the camera to retain shadow detail, whereas with film I remember more aiming at the mid tones and relying on roll-off to control the hottest areas. (I didn't think of it in precisely those terms back then, but that's what I was actually doing). It also explains why we saw rather different behaviour between the two cams shooting with a 5D2 and a 7D in a two-cam setup, which I'd assumed was some strangeness of the way we were shooting. The test clearly shows that the 7D is just biased differently for its zero point.
The point at which the comparison becomes less interesting is on controlled lighting sets like that, if you were using one of the cheaper cams in the highlights scene, you'd change the lighting to get you back in the camera's capabilities so it all look good on the monitor. At which point all the cameras would have looked good, as Bob said in the film.
My personal conclusions from part 1 were A) I just love the way the Alexa footage looks. If I win the lottery I'd buy one tomorrow... but B) the limiting factor in how great my movies look right now is not the camera. Tests like this point out factors to consider on set to improve your footage by showing the ways in which each camera will degrade under various different stresses.
Cheers, Hywel
For me the most illuminating graphic by far is the "range of exposure latitude compared with zero" graph. This is something that actually is of use on set when deciding how to use one of these cameras and even more so if you are mixing and matching different cameras.
As one of comments said with video you control the highlights and rely on the camera to retain shadow detail, whereas with film I remember more aiming at the mid tones and relying on roll-off to control the hottest areas. (I didn't think of it in precisely those terms back then, but that's what I was actually doing). It also explains why we saw rather different behaviour between the two cams shooting with a 5D2 and a 7D in a two-cam setup, which I'd assumed was some strangeness of the way we were shooting. The test clearly shows that the 7D is just biased differently for its zero point.
The point at which the comparison becomes less interesting is on controlled lighting sets like that, if you were using one of the cheaper cams in the highlights scene, you'd change the lighting to get you back in the camera's capabilities so it all look good on the monitor. At which point all the cameras would have looked good, as Bob said in the film.
My personal conclusions from part 1 were A) I just love the way the Alexa footage looks. If I win the lottery I'd buy one tomorrow... but B) the limiting factor in how great my movies look right now is not the camera. Tests like this point out factors to consider on set to improve your footage by showing the ways in which each camera will degrade under various different stresses.
Cheers, Hywel
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Is this a sincere statement? Because if it is, it's ridiculous. The F3 looked excellent in the SCCE tests, it was frequently mentioned in the same breaths as the Alexa, it blew the F35 into the weeds, and it was all done without s-log.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Some of them are members here but don't visit much; some of them hang out at PVC.
Here's a nice little writeup from post supervisor Mike Curtis:
http://provideocoalition.com/index....ation_screening_tomorrow_morning_at_cinegear/
He includes what the objectives of the SCCE were, which I think are highly relevant to this discussion.
If they were exhibiting footage uncorrected the that is definitely not redgamma 2 and redlog film. For one you can't sElect redgamma 2 and redlog film, both are gammas.
If they were carrying a pre-loaded LUT, one that hit the Alexa as well, then I'd be curious about what they used. In that case, the optimal situation for someone who isn't going to do a fullblown session would still be RC/RG2 IMO.
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G
G.P.
Guest
Thank you for your response, I'm just trying to bring to light the fact that without that key information, there is no real conclusion to be made of the visuals within the documentary. If your viewers were not educated as to the huge difference between REC709 and S-Log or HyperGamma, they can misinterpret the whole thing. I'm not saying there wasnt a great job being done. I'm saying there may have been an oversite to how important that information really is to judge anything about DR and clipping.
I want to mention something and the reason why I seem so passionate about these videos, I respect what you guys do and the time and money and effort put into such a test. But you guys must realize how powerful a video like this is to the community of not only 'cameramen' but producers.
I am passionate about it because there is a HUGE lack of understanding of the digital world. I see producers all the time pushing for technology they have no idea about. I spend hours sometimes on the phone with a producer or in person trying to explain why one camera is picked over another. The problem is producers watch a video like this, and take it for face value. They see the footage with NO explanation other than visual. The visuals I'm sure were very accurate, but without the knowledge of gamma curves the only thing visually you can obtain from the documentary is that the 7D was better than the 5D at handling highlights, but then the 7D also was holding up just about the same as the F3 was, or at least close to it. Thats VISUALLY what you take form that... But then the huge problem is, that without the proper explanations of why, or that there can be S-Log in the future, or anything, as a producer watching they would simply come up with the conclusion that:
A) The 7D came close to the F3
then as a producer you think:
B) It would save money for a production to rent a 7D than an F3, and since they are handling close to each other (or seems to be that way) on this internet video done by the best of the best theres the vindication of such information.
so what happens then is:
C) a producer makes a move to push a cheaper camera to save money, thinking he will be getting a very good quality image, and instead of looking for the right DP, will base his hiring of a DP BASED on what camera they own.
I see day in and day out production posts looking to "hire a DP with RED MX" or Looking to "hire a DP with 5D". There is 0 education for the producers out there to understand why they think the RED MX is better or the 5D is better. They base it on internet videos mostly and word of mouth from other producers.
It directly effects me the working DP. While I would love that I only got the bigger gigs all the time that understood this, theres a huge market out there that still does hire this way, and that directly effects my paycheck and other DP's paychecks as well.
There needs to be more education as to what visually people are seeing. They all looked pretty darn good online. I saw the Nikon actually did better than one of the canons in some areas. But to a young DP or unschooled producer, watching that video just amounts to one thing... well they all looked pretty close to each other, so going with the 5D over the weiscam wouldn't be that big of a deal, and save a ton of money.
Yes the DO think that way, because I consult these producers weekly, when a project comes to me, and they explain to me "well I've seen the 5D footage look great on Vimeo" And then I have to explain why its not right for the job.
You have a very powerful pull on the industry, weather you'd like to realize it or not. These videos are being use as "education". And yes they are well done, but without the proper explanations, conclusions based visually from an uneducated DP or Producer could directly effect the market. Its exactly what happened to the DSLR craze. I owned 2 varicams and an HPX500. 2 excellent cameras, but at the time the fad was DSLR's without any ryme or reason. There were gigs where these ENG type cameras were literally MADE for that were getting turned down because they decided to go with a DSLR setup and a DP that owned one.
Knowledge is power, and educating the people is even more powerful. Its hard to tell over the internet intentions. This was not a rant, or being angry, its simply me voicing what I've seen over the years, and the problems within the industry lately with the internet boom of HD video and that selections should be based off of DP and DP's choice of camera, rather than hey that camera looks good, lets get a DP that has that one.
There is a responsibility with the power you guys have over the independent industry. It wouldn't have made the video boring at all to just quickly add what the gammas were and a short disclaimer saying that under a different gamma you might get different results.
I look forward to the published papers, and also watching the docu that you guys have done. I think its a great service to the industry to have such tests done. I just hope that the independent industry is educated a little more, I highly doubt an indi producer with a $20,000 budget is thinking about buying the SCCE bluray. They mostly just go on word and what they see on the internet.
Thanks for reading this and I hope I didn't come off being angry, its just lately I find myself spending more and more time explaining to producers why they shouldn't be choosing cameras, or why camera choice should be in the hands of the right DP.
This is an EXACT sample of what I'm trying to avoid, a misinterpretation of the video they just saw. His statement is valid. Because to HIM what he saw is that the F3 didn't do very well to what he thought it should have against DSLR's and the big boys.
Since he had nothing else to go on but what was visually shown, I would have to say he is right. So this is one small point that dramatically shows the impact of the visuals. Now someone believes the F3 just doesn't do well without S-Log based on THIS video. Its why I made a big deal about what I just said.
Which is all great to know, and yes "we" the people of internet forums and knowledgeable people who try to keep that information spreading so as people dont misinterpret what they see. Thats all.
Thanks for whoever gave me the time to read what I have to say, I hope I better explained myself. I'm not a great writer, its why I communicate visually rather than orally.
tom.wong
Well-known member
http://provideocoalition.com/index....ation_screening_tomorrow_morning_at_cinegear/
color correction was involved, just enough to delog the footage and see what's there. not sure if it was brought down to full range values or 709, but either way, i think they had enough of the best of the best to know how to operate and optimize every camera. using rc2 and redlogfilm included. there are a lot of questions left unanswered, but I have confidence that some of the best and brightest in the industry did everything they could to get it right. no test is perfect, but i think they got a lot of their bases covered. absolutely cannot wait for the blu ray, hope there are tons of special features and side interviews.
Thanks guys.