First Epic Shipped

No one is going to argue about the value of extremely high resolution images for scientific applications.
Razz16mm said:
I suppose that might be a valid argument if the only market you are interested in serving is the lowest common denominator home market.
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Try to conduct a discussion about the validity of 4K in the broadcast market on RED's site (see the big mistake thread). No broadcast knowledge required. No discussions about economic barriers. All you need is a dream and a vision. Click your Ruby Red slippers together and we will have 4K live sports broadcasts in every home. Gimmie a break.
 
milksac said:
Click your Ruby Red slippers together and we will have 4K live sports broadcasts in every home. Gimmie a break.
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I didn't even think about that until you said it. I'm not sure how many know this, but bandwidth has a set data stream per channel. Many stations had a very hard time attempting to cram quality HD into their streams, basically over the same airwaves that were designed for SD. Getting true 4k over the current allotted bandwidth is going to be next to impossible with current compression methods. They can't change the bandwidth allotments because that would mean all TVs and Satellites, Equipment, etc. would have to be reprogrammed and that's not gonna happen any time soon. The best bet for that would be to come out with some super compression algorythm that will allow 4k to be compressed down even further. I beleieve the bandwidth on over the air stations equals about 25Mb/s total, cable and satellite stations tend to dump rates down between 5 and 10Mb/s (and that's Mega "bits" per second, not Megabytes). So that is another challenge in getting anything above 1080p into homes across America or the world for that matter.
 
I believe 8k will be THE standard of the future, and by "future" I mean "Star Trek view-screen" - when EVERYBODY has a 10' high screen which cost $100 and hangs like a curtain in their home..... in say, 2050.
Until then, dream on. The average cinema experience doesn't even match or exceed good 1080p, so apart from the dynamic range and "film goodness" there's no need to go the movies anymore - people suck, and they stink - why subject myself to that when I can enjoy a Blu-Ray repeatedly at home, pause at will, urinate at will, one arm around wife and one patting the cat? Try doing that in the cinema!
Jannard is a dreamer, and a do-er. Recent scientific tests also prove him to be insane.
8k, ROFLMAO..... see you in 2050, maybe even 2100.
I struggle to pixel-peep good 1080p at home viewing distances, so I doubt Joe Average knows or cares what he is looking at as long as the chicks are hot and the explosions are loud.
 
Paul V Doherty said:
I believe 8k will be THE standard of the future, and by "future" I mean "Star Trek view-screen" - when EVERYBODY has a 10' high screen which cost $100 and hangs like a curtain in their home..... in say, 2050.
Until then, dream on. The average cinema experience doesn't even match or exceed good 1080p, so apart from the dynamic range and "film goodness" there's no need to go the movies anymore - people suck, and they stink - why subject myself to that when I can enjoy a Blu-Ray repeatedly at home, pause at will, urinate at will, one arm around wife and one patting the cat? Try doing that in the cinema!
Jannard is a dreamer, and a do-er. Recent scientific tests also prove him to be insane.
8k, ROFLMAO..... see you in 2050, maybe even 2100.
I struggle to pixel-peep good 1080p at home viewing distances, so I doubt Joe Average knows or cares what he is looking at as long as the chicks are hot and the explosions are loud.
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+1
 
Jeremy_Sawatzky said:
this is the first epic to be shipped to the hands of the consumer. Offhollywood. this is a custom limited edition machined epic. full blown production of epics is slated to begin in febuary, epic S just after. Scarlet in the middle of all that. The film industry is about to be blown apart.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53099
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I'm broke . Why does the Epic have to be so expensive? I guess I'll have to wait 25 years until the price goes down. Or get a job. That's a good idea... this "getting a job" thing...
 
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roei z said:
+1
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I'd rather be in the company of one who is pushing the envelope than one who is content with their surroundings. The entire RED team seems to consist of people who do not rest on their laurels (or those of their competitors - if you can call them that at this point), and I dig that.
 
benbixby said:
I'd rather be in the company of one who is pushing the envelope than one who is content with their surroundings. The entire RED team seems to consist of people who do not rest on their laurels (or those of their competitors - if you can call them that at this point), and I dig that.
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If creative artists through the ages had been satisfied with " good enough" we would all still be watching cave paintings flickering in firelight.
 
Kind of strange that Jannard has closed his "1080p was a mistake" thread.

To many sensible suggestions, by clever DPs, as to why he was wrong, maybe?
 
it was a mistake from the whole beginning.

The problem lies not in resolution, but in compression. In the post of 'Drama camera' (which due to some issues was deleted), Otis Grapsas engineering the camera, posted uncompressed SD material upscaled to full HD. Oh boy, it looked awesome i have to say.. soft, but great. If you do the same for compressed DV, not sure if may like what you see.

Same applies here... people should worry how to implement more effective codecs, how to transfer bigger amounts of data, instead of going high res. Youtube posted 4k samples, so what? at the bitrate of 4 mbits or something, how does it look like? bad.

Yes, Jim noticed something about codecs, and he hinted having something he knows and others - don't. maybe they discovered a secret to transmit quality 4k with the same data rate of 25 mbits? maybe. But then again, use those 25 mbits for transmitting quality 1080, will look much better than it looks now..
 
Jannard's argument was specifically that 1080p HD was always inadequate as a potential replacement for 35mm film acquisition in major theatrical productions. He was not considering its practicality as a production or delivery format for other uses. What we watch at home is irrelevant. 20% of major chain theater screens in the US an Europe will be converted to 4k digital projection by 2012 under current schedules. Most will be 4k within 5 years.
 
This is why his arguement failed.... it is saying that 16mm is a mistake, that s16mm is a mistake.... that HD films like sin city were a mistake... slumdog a mistake. All these format choices were either used for artistic or financial reason. So, should the director/DP have sacarificed their artist merit, just in case 4K becomes standard? hell no. Should they have scrapped their film because budget didn't allow for s35? hell no.

Resolution is just one part of film making. A pretty insignficant part, if you get everything else right. I'd rather watch 2K genius than 4K medicore.
 
Razz16mm said:
Jannard's argument was specifically that 1080p HD was always inadequate as a potential replacement for 35mm film acquisition in major theatrical productions. He was not considering its practicality as a production or delivery format for other uses.
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Wrong. In addition to the theatrical discussion Jannard also specifically discusses the sports broadcast market.

Jim Retar wrote: Sports networks hold the key to consumer purchasing power, when it comes to upgrading their TVs... not tv, not films.

Until there is a 4K live broadcast camera and the sports networks feel there is enough "groundswell" to sell this format... it is not going to happen, in the mainstream. Moving the sports industry to 4K would cost billions, that's without even thinking about the consumers buying expensive TVs. We are in recession, you know?
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Jim Jannard wrote: I disagree with you completely... 4K sports will absolutely happen and won't cost billions. It actually won't cost any more.

Jim
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Razz16mm said:
What we watch at home is irrelevant.
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I think Jim finds the home market very relevant.
Don't count television out of 4K. The delivery mechanism is coming. - Jim
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Take all of those comments and keep in mind that this phase...
"Everything in life changes... including our camera specs and delivery dates..."
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...can and should be applied to all his statements. It's one thing to say it's coming, but add on the amount of time Red takes to develop tech, and then add on that the slow pace that television and broadcast standards change. The delivery mechanism could take a decade. There are no hard dates for this stuff, so to say it's coming and not give anything more substantial is pretty convenient. When? 2011? 2012? 2017?
 
I think it is safe to say that Jim gets an idea or a nugget of news from his team and get's a little too excited.

Sometimes I like this, it shows his excitement about what his team CAN do (and they really are working some magic).
Sometimes, I dislike it, he tries to create controversy for forum hits or is completly off the mark with his views.

In this case, I think his team have worked out a way to make a 4K live feed and have the potential to deliver via REDray at 15Mbtps. That IS exciting.

But that is future talk that may never happen.... so to dismiss 1080p and even SD as a mistake is plain ridiculous... elitist. That means that every program should have been shot on s35 (or RED from 2007), that was simply not commercial viable, in some cases artisticly too.

Can you imagine the 100,000s of great shows that would never make it if we take video out of the equation and stick to the elitist view that only 35mm/4k is "mistake" proof.
 
Are there inexpensive 4k monotiors available? How do you even monitor the footage when editing? are there video cards that support 4k resolution?
 
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