starmanric
Active member
Could the af100 electronics be upgraded via firmware to sony f700 specs?
Firmware Possibilities
- Thread starter starmanric
- Start date
Barry_Green
Moderator
Of course not. Just like an FS100 couldn't be upgraded by firmware into being an FS700.
starmanric
Active member
BW Barry where can I get your af100 book mine was stolen from my baggaage while traveling.
ric
ric
Barry_Green
Moderator
In America the best places to get it are off Amazon or from B&H...
maybe not into an fs700 but...
maybe not into an fs700 but...
Im sure they could give us more options if they wanted. Such as 120fps at 720p - even if just in burst mode. That is possible with the existing hardware. Also, they could put the 1:1 zoom on the monitor if they wanted. And if they could bump up the bitrate to 28mbps, im sure they could do it for all the capture options, and probably push it to 35mbps - if they wanted to. NOW that is a firmware update I would buy and I'm sure most other people would too.
maybe not into an fs700 but...
Im sure they could give us more options if they wanted. Such as 120fps at 720p - even if just in burst mode. That is possible with the existing hardware. Also, they could put the 1:1 zoom on the monitor if they wanted. And if they could bump up the bitrate to 28mbps, im sure they could do it for all the capture options, and probably push it to 35mbps - if they wanted to. NOW that is a firmware update I would buy and I'm sure most other people would too.
Barry_Green
Moderator
How do you know that's possible?
They cannot. It is not possible, with the hardware that's in the camera. It would require a hardware change, which is why the similar AC160 and AC130 need to be shipped back to Panasonic for a hardware change to add the magnified focus assist.
I don't doubt that they could. They already encode 35mbps when you put the camera in 60fps overcrank mode. But to do it for regular recording would violate the AVCHD standard, and so far they haven't shown any interest in making it nonstandard.
You can already get that and much much more without having to wait for firmware, just get a Hyperdeck Shuttle 2. For $345 you get 220mbps of 4:2:2 DNxHD, or 1.5gbps of true uncompressed. No need to wait for firmware, it's already available.
Steve Kahn
Well-known member
Yes, Understood Barry. But not for overcrank.
I'm directing a short next week which transitions from 24fps to 60fps (in post) in one continuous scene. It will be shot, of course, at 60fps but the problem I face is that I NEED audio during the 24fps segment and am forced to use ghost sound from another track and perhaps add ADR in post.
The decisions to not have sound in overcrank (yes I'm aware of the sync issues) seems arbitrary.
The decision to limit AF100 SCHC capture to a delivery codec seems foolish.
A chip desinger friend at motorolla told me "any chip that can code '120 at 60' can code '240 at 30'" as a matter of mathematic fact. So that principal would work with the af100 chipset too. If the memory buffers and coding hardware can handle 60 fps at 1080 it should be able to handle 120fps at 540.
And I much prefer having all the elements in the box. I don't like the separate recorder any more than I like a dslr with 100 trinkets duct tapes to it.
And barry - unless you are a programmer/hardware specialist at panasonic you shouldn't be so sure about what they can or can't do. Their goal is money from sales of hardware. not making the best possible equipment with all the features at rock bottom prices.
And I much prefer having all the elements in the box. I don't like the separate recorder any more than I like a dslr with 100 trinkets duct tapes to it.
And barry - unless you are a programmer/hardware specialist at panasonic you shouldn't be so sure about what they can or can't do. Their goal is money from sales of hardware. not making the best possible equipment with all the features at rock bottom prices.
KyleProhaska
Veteran
Same to you Rob. I trust Barry's knowledge on this issue. There are plenty of other brands of camera to choose from. If the AF100 doesn't provide what you want, you're free to look elsewhere.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Or just shoot in 720p, and record audio live. That's the way I'd go in this scenario.
It's the same decision they've been making since at least 2005, and the same decision that every other manufacturer makes (as far as I know).
Others could argue that putting nonstandard codecs on a supposedly standardized broadcast-division camera would be foolish.
Hey, I'd like more too, I'm not telling you you're wrong, but I am trying to explain the whys of the decision-making process as best I understand them.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I would certainly question that. It MAY be possible, but it certainly isn't definite that ANY chip can do that.
And whether it's possible in theory or not, the fact is -- the AF100 can't do that.
Would you be happy with 120fps at only 540 res? Well, actually I guess we already have the answer to that, that pretty much looks like what the FS700 does and everyone seems gaga for it, so ... hopefully they will listen and provide such a feature if it's possible.
Yours is a reasonable statement. I was a programmer, and have met and spent substantial time with the engineers at Panasonic, and have discussed these types of issues with them extensively, and I feel like I have a pretty good handle on what they are saying is possible and what isn't. Which is why I ask why someone would think it was possible, when they almost assuredly haven't invested the time and effort into it that I have. A lot of people seem to think that "anything" is possible with hardware, and that's just not so.
Well, that should be obvious -- that's every hardware manufacturer's goal. Even Red makes money from the sales of hardware, they certainly don't make the best possible equipment with all possible features at rock-bottom prices.
Mark Smith
Veteran
I think as a group we have to get over the concept of "everything is possible with a firmware update", because most of the time it isn't. It might be if the camera designers built in hardware specs with the idea that down the road they could enable more capability via firmware, but it seems much of the time they do not, at least as far as Panasonic is concerned. Red is over at the other end of the spectrum as far as making firmware changes and from what I have seen, it has been a road with a lot of potholes.
Rolf Silber
Veteran
I guess that would be one reason for a manufacturer to keep that road closed (as much as I, at times, find this sad) - because in the end it won't help you a lot if you can pimp your cam to be a mighty data-slurper but faces the risk to get an hiccup and destroys a shot ..... or a day of shooting. "Reliability" is one of the most stable codecs .... ;-)
That's what they want you to think. Everything is possible with firmware. The iPhone 4 has 16 channel audio, 16k resolution and can record for 4 days continuous, but Apple sees no need to release the firmware for that capability. They want customers to buy a new phone every year. There is talk that all the Zeiss CP.2 lenses are actually super compact 18-180 zooms, but they lock the firmware to hold at one prime value. This way, they only have to make one lens, but they sell them as different primes and clean up selling a full set of lenses rather than one. I talked to someone at Ford. He said that they can actually get 156 MPG from a F-150, but they won't release the chip's firmware because they are in a deal with big oil.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
Barry, I KNOW you know this, it was in your comparision of the AF100 and FS100. The FS100 has (from launch) been able to give you 1080 60P
with audio. So yeah, you CAN get overcranked with audio full 1080 WITHOUT having to drop down to 720p. Actually the AF100 will do it now
as well with a paid ($250) upgrade if I remember right. I use it a lot on the FS100, then you can 'ramp' the video speed in post, it
works absolutely perfectly for what the OP was saying he wanted to do. So the OP might want to take a look at that...I know for a fact the
FS100 will do it and has been able to do it since launch, and I think the AF100 can now do it with a paid upgrade. It's a nice feature in
my opinion, I do a lot of speed ramping using it and it works great.
Rolf Silber
Veteran
Yep. Typical for German companies, btw. Their bosses sit snickering in the woods because they have sold you a wonder-weapon but reverse-engineered it to a mere can-opener. Revenge for the lost war. Most BMWs can actually fly if....
A camera with a more open concept firmware wise may be attractive - but could also be a perfect nightmare for a camera manufacturer, having to provide a stable operating system that survives possible new "apps". Different field of engineering probably....??
Steve Kahn
Well-known member
With it so easy to inadvertently pop into VFR mode I just don't understand how recording sound as well is such an intractable option option.
Yes, yes I understand it's been since 2005. But don't we think it's time for a change?
Yes, yes I understand it's been since 2005. But don't we think it's time for a change?
O.k I don't know about all that. I don't mean to sound like that guy with the conspiracy theories. I am not saying anything is possible, I don't think you can compare a physical prime lens vs zoom lens to software. I have worked with both the Alura zoom and the cp2's and I can tell that physically the components don't rely on firmware. It's all glass and metal gears. Just FYI.
And Barry, thanks for qualifying your points, I don't mean to undermine what you're saying, OBVIOUSLY after all the books and videos etc. I am well aware of your qualifications. It was just my opinion from hearsay that such things are possible. I think back to the days of the SGI when alias ver5 (firmware) couldn't handle realtime shading graphics, and five years later, the EXACT SAME HARDWARE running maya could produce real time shading with texturing.
I just don't believe programmers decide what the chipset is capable of.
REGARDLESS, this whole conversation is for not, as I am sure Panasonic will be focusing their attention on the 4k cam or the FS700 competitor, and all of us af100 users are now part of last years accounting.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Whether a chip is capable of something or not, doesn't mean that firmware could make it do that. Not every system is released with reprogrammable chips! Some are, some aren't. Reprogrammable chips are more expensive than non-reprogrammable. So even if a chip is capable of something, if the physical hardware built into the camera doesn't provide for reprogrammability, then firmware cannot and will not enable that additional feature.
There are some things Vitaliy can do with the GH2 hack -- like up the bitrate of the codec. And there are some things he cannot do -- like make it 4:2:2. Or fix the chroma bug on the HDMI output. Or give it faster frame rates.
Firmware updating can only affect those items where the hardware manufacturer has left accessibility and tie-in hooks open. If those doors are closed, then there is nothing zero nada zilch that any firmware hacker (or the manufacturer) can do about it.
Like I say, I know a little about this; I was a programmer, and not just a hobbyist, I was a professional videogame programmer who wrote or co-wrote some of the best-selling PC videogames in history (at the time). And granted my skillset is out of date, but the fundamental principles don't change, and after my extensive conversations with the engineers, I think I have a pretty decent handle on the situation. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, just pointing out what the truth is.
There are some things Vitaliy can do with the GH2 hack -- like up the bitrate of the codec. And there are some things he cannot do -- like make it 4:2:2. Or fix the chroma bug on the HDMI output. Or give it faster frame rates.
Firmware updating can only affect those items where the hardware manufacturer has left accessibility and tie-in hooks open. If those doors are closed, then there is nothing zero nada zilch that any firmware hacker (or the manufacturer) can do about it.
Like I say, I know a little about this; I was a programmer, and not just a hobbyist, I was a professional videogame programmer who wrote or co-wrote some of the best-selling PC videogames in history (at the time). And granted my skillset is out of date, but the fundamental principles don't change, and after my extensive conversations with the engineers, I think I have a pretty decent handle on the situation. Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, just pointing out what the truth is.
alaskacameradude
Veteran
Like I said, the FS100 does record 1080 60p WITH
sound and as I understand it, the $250 firmware upgrade
for the AF100 adds this ability as well. So if you need
to ramp from 24 to 60 frames a second in a sequence
with sound as you earlier indicated this has you covered.