Finally saw GH2 footage first hand.. I am not upgrading. Staying with GH1.3

[tflak]

I'm sure every producer here understands the all-important term "target audience." Why is it so hard for some to understand or accept "target market?" If you consider the target market, the GH2 represents an advance over the GH1.

In terms of total sales volume and appeal to the target market (as well as feasible support of their product), the GH13 means no more to Panasonic than a souped-up hot rod sitting in some teenager's garage. IMO.

 

[stoneinapond]

I'm sure every producer here understands the all-important term "target audience." Why is it so hard for some to understand or accept "target market?" If you consider the target market, the GH2 represents an advance over the GH1.

In terms of total sales volume and appeal to the target market (as well as feasible support of their product), the GH13 means no more to Panasonic than a souped-up hot rod sitting in some teenager's garage. IMO.

Thank you for a clear and sane post amid all the hysterical panty bunching.

 

[GrahamH]

In terms of total sales volume and appeal to the target market....

Do you have GH1 sales figures before and after the hack became available to back that statement up? My completely uniformed opinion is that the buzz generated by the GH1's hackability probably did a superb job of raising the profile of the Panasonic camera relative to competing models, particularly among those previously wedded to canikons.

The main reason to buy the GH1 over the G1 was video, and the initial reviews of the unhacked GH1's video capabilities were decidedly luke-warm.

 

[PDR]

Do you have GH1 sales figures before and after the hack became available to back that statement up? My completely uniformed opinion is that the buzz generated by the GH1's hackability probably did a superb job of raising the profile of the Panasonic camera relative to competing models, particularly among those previously wedded to canikons.

I agree the hack brought "buzz" , but maybe he was referring real target market ie. photographers . I suspect the market for people using DSLR's for photography vastly outnumbers those who use for videography

 

[GrahamH]

I agree the hack brought "buzz" , but maybe he was referring real target market ie. photographers . I suspect the market for people using DSLR's for photography vastly outnumbers those who use for videography

Wouldn't still photographers buy the G1 or GF1 preferentially? ( I totally admit to actually knowing nothing factual about this whatsoever, so I will shut up now.)

 

[stoneinapond]

Do you have GH1 sales figures before and after the hack became available to back that statement up? My completely uniformed opinion is that the buzz generated by the GH1's hackability probably did a superb job of raising the profile of the Panasonic camera relative to competing models, particularly among those previously wedded to canikons.

The main reason to buy the GH1 over the G1 was video, and the initial reviews of the unhacked GH1's video capabilities were decidedly luke-warm.

Not sure what you were reading at the time, but these are just two initial reviews.

DP Review
So the 'only' really big news on the GH1 is the HD video mode. However, it's fair to say that this is the best implementation of video on a 'non-compact camera' that we've seen so far.

Luminous Landscape
On the video side image quality equals that of any other current video capable DSLR, and in terms of resolution and low noise leaves consumer camcorders in the dust.

 

[mimirsan]

Not sure what you were reading at the time, but these are just two initial reviews.

DP Review
So the 'only' really big news on the GH1 is the HD video mode. However, it's fair to say that this is the best implementation of video on a 'non-compact camera' that we've seen so far.

Luminous Landscape
On the video side image quality equals that of any other current video capable DSLR, and in terms of resolution and low noise leaves consumer camcorders in the dust.

I dont think the point of the thread here is that the GH2 is not as good as a standard pre hacked GH1...the GH2 IS a clear advancement over a non hack GH1.

just that in comparison the IQ of the GH2 does not totally hold up against a high bitrate avchd hacked GH1 and that Panasonic have from the looks of things done another so so job with the codec (17mbps avchd can be clean without artifacts when in motion...but obviously not on the G series)

This does not come as a shock to me anyway.
Panasonic are selling to general public and the general public probably would not know about the hack nor want to hack...and and want the latest gadget.
The hack will not come into panasonics business equation. Its a shame they didnt really sit up and take notice when this hack revolution happened but I can understand why.

The point of our original poster is...hes happier with keeping his "GH13" after trying a GH2 out and would not sell it for a GH2 ...Which to me is the most common sense approach when looking to upgrade.

 

[stonebat]

I cheered too early after reading about GH2's decent 24pN performance and useful 1:1 cropping. Those features are nice to have... but I need good 60p. GH2 has no b-frame in 720p60... it showed mud slightly better than GH1, but definitely worse than GH13. Only if GH2 gets hack, it would surpass GH13... but that could be a long wait even if it happens. Also poor quality control from Panny... why rush to get GH2 asap? I can see rapid price drop in GH2 as 60D is going through. HDMI out and Ninja sound great but at high cost. It just seems too early to get GH2. But I sold my GH13... at darn good price above $800. Now I'm trying a crapshoot to buy a new hackable GH1 with the kit lens at $999.95. All those troubles because Panny kept the same stupid avchd encoder with stupid 17Mbps limit...

Edit: hmmm... currently unhackable GH1 could be just fine... http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?229099-You-Can-hack-the-GH1-1.34

 

[Blackout]

Guys the support issue is the sole reason why we don’t see bit rates above 30 mb/sec. They have to guarantee that this camera will work with all of their TVs and everything that uses the AVC-HD standard. Since that Standard doesn’t include bit rates above 30 mb/sec(Right now) we are not going to see that for quite awhile.

Face it, the only way we are going to get 30+ mb/sec in the GH2 is if they issue new firmware. Your time is much better spent trying to find a flaw in the GH2 as it comes from the factory and reporting that flaw to death!

The only way we will get new firmware is if they add a new lens or need to fix something in the camera. So here is to hoping that someone finds an obscure problem with the GH2 so we can all report it over and over again.

Graham and mpg, I would agree with you on the support and compatibility issues on the GH2 (although.. all my hacked GH1.3 files play fine in all the players I have stuck them in with SD cards so really... even that seems moot) and I can understand that we, this community have turned a toy camera into a pro camera and panasonic may not like that.

But on the AF-100, they have no excuse. That camera should not be limited to 24mbits for 5,000+ dollars. Hell I would have even accepted P2 and its ludicrous prices if they raised the god damn bitrate.. I don't want to have to carry around extra devices with hard drives in them and crap to do what the PRO camera should do off the bat! I hear all this talk about how efficient the codec is and that it's so great it doesn't need more than 24 mbits, but I just don't buy it..... it DOES need more space to store data, that compression is too much for high detailed moving scenes, and the footage coming out is just confirming that.

 

[Blackout]

I cheered too early after reading about GH2's decent 24pN performance and useful 1:1 cropping. Those features are nice to have... but I need good 60p. GH2 has no b-frame in 720p60... it showed mud slightly better than GH1, but definitely worse than GH13. Only if GH2 gets hack, it would surpass GH13... but that could be a long wait even if it happens. Also poor quality control from Panny... why rush to get GH2 asap? I can see rapid price drop in GH2 as 60D is going through. HDMI out and Ninja sound great but at high cost. It just seems too early to get GH2. But I sold my GH13... at darn good price above $800. Now I'm trying a crapshoot to buy a new hackable GH1 with the kit lens at $999.95. All those troubles because Panny kept the same stupid avchd encoder with stupid 17Mbps limit...

Edit: hmmm... currently unhackable GH1 could be just fine... http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?229099-You-Can-hack-the-GH1-1.34

Ahem.... ** cough **

"told ya so"

:shocked:

 

[stonebat]

I should say.... "thanks"? Yeah your call was right.

Just piling of disappointments. 1st wave of vDSLR was a pleasant surprise. Many people liked vDSLRs and expected much better specs and demanded specific video features. But the camera makers... doing same old product differentiation strategy and feature crippling. 60D sucks. Crippled 7D in a plastic body. Why doesn't Canon kill the series? Because of this series, 550D didn't get the swivel LCD. That's so stupid. D7000 perfect except the hot pixels issue during HD video recording. hundreds of hot pixels if not thousands. Shame on Nikon. K-5 super. Crazy good reviews. But no 60p. GH2... well same good old encoder.

I'm hoping for more good news... but GH13 for now. FPN is annoying, but it's not a showstopper. Wish me a luck to get a good copy from Adorama.

 

[Blackout]

At about comment #170 on his "3 days with the AF-100" blog post, Phillip Bloom got asked that question:


Question: other than ergonomics and xlr, are there significant differences between af100 and GH2?

Reply Philip Bloom: enormous!! SDI, overcrank, no image issues. Full HD 24mbs 24, 25,30p. viewfinder…the list goes on
http://philipbloom.net/2010/11/11/japanaf101/

You are only quoting the positive things he said. Bloom also had THIS to say about the 24 mbit codec, and I quote:

"I came close to getting to try an Atomos Ninja but I just missed the guy from Atomos by a day so was not able to get a unit to use with it. This would have been cool. It’s HDMI only at moment but records directly into high bit rate pro res, perfect for me as an FCP editor and it doubles as a monitor AND is cheap! But I did not have it, so I simply recorded at 24mb/s AVCHD. Which is fine, but a real shame."

24/mb/s AVCHD = fine, but a real shame... and that's "Bloom" talking. The supposed super god of the internet all the video and dslr world. (Just messing with ya Bloomy old chap I know you know your shite).

That's not what I want to hear in a $5000+ investment. So as it would appear, if you want to get the best quality out of the AF-100, you MUST figure out some 3rd party box compression solution coming out of hdmi or sdi. As it stands so far in all reports and images I have seen, other than the nice feel and manual controls of the AF-100, the actual image quality is probably not going to much better than a GH2, and I will repeat again - the hacked GH13 trumps the GH2 in image quality.. so you can take that info as you want.

 

[Ben_B]

$5000+ investment. So as it would appear, if you want to get the best quality out of the AF-100, you MUST figure out some 3rd party box compression solution coming out of hdmi or sdi. As it stands so far in all reports and images I have seen, other than the nice feel and manual controls of the AF-100, the actual image quality is probably not going to much better than a GH2, and I will repeat again - the hacked GH13 trumps the GH2 in image quality.. so you can take that info as you want.

This is Panasonic Broadcasts AVCHD PH implementation so it works as well as the HMC-150, which has a basically unbreakable codec, no macro-blocking, etc. It might not handle heavy grading, etc, as well as an I-frame codec but it does a great job, as good as XDCAM EX. Far better than GH1, GH2, or even GH13.

 

[Svart]

This is Panasonic Broadcasts AVCHD PH implementation so it works as well as the HMC-150, which has a basically unbreakable codec, no macro-blocking, etc. It might not handle heavy grading, etc, as well as an I-frame codec but it does a great job, as good as XDCAM EX. Far better than GH1, GH2, or even GH13.

It's amazing how many times this has to be mentioned over and over and over and people still just don't get that bitrate isn't the only thing that matters. I think it's because it's just a simple number, much like the CPU GHZ speed race in computers, in that it gives users an easy way grasp a small understanding of an otherwise much more complex system. It's unfortunate because it also breeds naivety. Bitrate isn't everything, not by a longshot.

 

[Blackout]

This is Panasonic Broadcasts AVCHD PH implementation so it works as well as the HMC-150, which has a basically unbreakable codec, no macro-blocking, etc. It might not handle heavy grading, etc, as well as an I-frame codec but it does a great job, as good as XDCAM EX. Far better than GH1, GH2, or even GH13.

Now you're going a bit too far. I can break the HMC-150 codec easily, and have.

I keep HEARING stuff like this said over and over:

"Well you can't even compare the GH2 or the AF-100 because such and such a codec with its super duper mega implementation of advanced B frame super scanning ultra tune mega compression smarty pants egg flipping yoke reducing scan technology hyper color bit rate reducer popeye laser beam spinach strength encoding technology.... blah and blah...."

....make it better even though it doesn't have the SPACE to store the detail it needs, but I don't SEE it in the image quality of anything posted so far. My EYES are what do the judging - not codec talk or spec talk.

The clips Barry put up and the clips Bloom put up are very good, but not outstandingly good, and not 'blow me away" stuff.

They DO have issues with noise and some blocky slight mud in certain areas. And the aliasing did not look THAT much better to me than my highest end GH1.3 shots. I saw aliasing all over the leaves of Barry's AF-100 shot. ALSO - most of the footage is very stable tripod stuff... I want to see some movement in high detail. Definitely a great improvement again over the unhacked GH1, but I would be hard pressed to say that I have seen ANYTHING that is a $4000+ improvement in image quality over the very best GH1.3 footage I have attained with my settings at 52 mbit avchd.

I have given up on the GH2 for now, as it appears a failed consumer toy or at best a B cam for lock down shots with not much movement with high detail, but I will be keeping a close eye on the AF-100 and possible solutions via the hdmi / sdi out. I want solutions for a windows 7 machine though not mac. So the 'Ninja' is not for me.

 

[stonebat]

Blackout... I'd pick GH13 instead of GH2 for now. But AF100/101 over GH13... no question about that. Those who buy AF series wouldn't mind carrying external video recorder.

 

[Cavemandude]

You are only quoting the positive things he said. Bloom also had THIS to say about the 24 mbit codec, and I quote:

"I came close to getting to try an Atomos Ninja but I just missed the guy from Atomos by a day so was not able to get a unit to use with it. This would have been cool. It’s HDMI only at moment but records directly into high bit rate pro res, perfect for me as an FCP editor and it doubles as a monitor AND is cheap! But I did not have it, so I simply recorded at 24mb/s AVCHD. Which is fine, but a real shame."

24/mb/s AVCHD = fine, but a real shame..

All I read out of what Bloom said was that he was disappointed that he didn't get his hands on the Ninja so he could have done a direct comparison with the AF100 codec, not the the AF100 codec was shameful.

Randy

 

[John Caballero]

but I don't SEE it in the image quality of anything posted so far.

Key words here: anything posted so far.

 

[Blackout]

Blackout... I'd pick GH13 instead of GH2 for now. But AF100/101 over GH13... no question about that. Those who buy AF series wouldn't mind carrying external video recorder.

I am in agreement with you on this. I shall continue shooting with my 3 GH13s and I have a pretty good workflow and support gear system going now. I will wait and keep my eyes focused on the AF-100 and look for some device for windows users as I am NOT happy with the codec as I see it so far.

 

[Blackout]

All I read out of what Bloom said was that he was disappointed that he didn't get his hands on the Ninja so he could have done a direct comparison with the AF100 codec, not the the AF100 codec was shameful.

Randy

I wasn't trying to put it into a context that the AF-100 codec was 'shameful,' but he definitely laid it out that he was 'limited' to shooting with it and it was really wanting to see the quality of the camera with a better codec. "Fine" is not the greatest word to describe something... it's saying... "adequate" at best.