Finally saw GH2 footage first hand.. I am not upgrading. Staying with GH1.3

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I don't want to totally skew this GH1.3 GH2 thread into projector land, but I looked at both the 8350 and the 9500, and went with the 8350 because #1 - I really could NOT see a big difference in contrast (supposedly 4 times more? I think they play with those #s....) when both projectors were in cinema mode and calibrated correctly - definitely not $700 more worth of quality to my eyes.

#2 - the 8350 is a a good deal brighter at it's brightest setting - dynamic mode... you'll burn your eyes on a 14 foot diag screen, BUT, that extra brightness evens out just perfect when I bring it to a theater and project onto a HUGE screen, the 8350's added lumens made more sense for me. Unlike a dlp projector, the colors still rock even in super bright mode. I really don't understand why the 9500 is more money... it's odd. Supposedly it has better blacks but I am a nut case and I really couldn't see it.. the light was more important, and they fixed the issue that last years 8100 had with bulbs blowing up... the new bulbs are rated for 4000 hours and are not supposed to dim at all far until after 2000+ hours. Also - the new projector uses inorganic 3 1080p panels.. I used to be a DLP projector person but this thing blows all the DLP projectors I have seen out of the water.. and I have really sensitive eyes so the rainbow effect single chip DLP drives me nuts and three chip DLP is waaaaay to expensive and the other technologies are too dim.

The thing is a beast though, it's not a little carry around computer projector, it's huge and like 20 pounds. But I actually like that though, when I show up with this thing, people take me very seriously. When they see the picture, they take me even more seriously! Again... I charge for the day about the cost of the projector to come out and set up a full corporate show, so I already have had it pay for itself twice, and I have owned it for about 3 weeks. You do the math. The Epson 8350 projector is to projectors in terms of performance value what the GH1 hacked is to HDSLRs.

myepson8350.jpg


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And we now return you to your GH2 vs GH1.3 thread....
 
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Back to track, here's how I see it:
  • GH2's sensor is worse than GH1's, that's a fact. It comes from physics, fitting more pixels in the same area. Also, preliminary evidence shows the banding issue is fixed in software, not in sensor
  • GH2 footage may or not be inferior to GH13 as of yet, but will for sure beat it in the forthcoming months. Back in Japan they won't allow themselves to be humiliated twice. What may need to be addressed will be so via firmware release.
  • GH2 will never be hackable. It's firmware is most likely encrypted, as there's nothing special to it. Pana is already doing so in older models, and they don't actually need any hardware shift to make it happen. It's the actual firmware that implements the decoding before writing to ROM.
  • Pana payed close attention to this forum, so it was actually quite worth it. They made GH13 official, but it didn't come for free: they renamed it to GH2 and made us pay for it. As a bonus, they gave us some other very rerquested stuff that would take a long time to achieve in assembly: faster focus and HDMI out, plus some marketing bullshit.
  • GH13 is a dead end. Anyone willing to buy one will now get an improved GH2 version, but with no future. They will have to pray it never breakes, or it will be downgraded to GH1 by service centers. And the hack evolution is likely to freeze, as more and more people sell it on ebay trying to still get a premium value back, and the supporting community goes to extinction. And Vitaly won't be hacking for an empty crowd!
My advice to all:
  • If you're a pro, sell your GH13 now and go for a GH2!
  • If you're a casual shooter, buy a GH13 after christmas on ebay, as they'll be selling for under £200 by then.
 
> They made GH13 official, but it didn't come for free: they renamed it to GH2 and made us pay for it.

Since there appears to be no changes whatsoever in bitrate or B-frames for any GH2 format except 24P, there are many features of the GH13 not in the GH2.
 
GrahamH said:
> They made GH13 official, but it didn't come for free: they renamed it to GH2 and made us pay for it.

Since there appears to be no changes whatsoever in bitrate or B-frames for any GH2 format except 24P, there are many features of the GH13 not in the GH2.
Click to expand...

Ok this statement is crazy...first of all bitrate and B-frames are a big change, secondly:

Drastically improved low-light performance.
Live HDMI out.
Manual audio level controls.
1:1 1080p telephoto crop mode.
24PN.
Highlight indicating feature.
Ultra-fast auto focus.
Touch auto-focus.
More programmable function buttons.
Higher resolution viewfinder.

That's just to name the first ones that come to mind.
 
Dude, there is NO change to bitrate or B frames in any format except 24P.

Yes, there are advantages of GH2 over GH1. But it is a fact that there are valuable features of the GH13 that are missing from the GH2 - like NTSC/PAL switching.
 
GrahamH said:
Dude, there is NO change to bitrate or B frames in any format except 24P.

Yes, there are advantages of GH2 over GH1. But it is a fact that there are valuable features of the GH13 that are missing from the GH2 - like NTSC/PAL switching.
Click to expand...

I've never once had to switch my camera from NTSC to PAL or vice versa. What I have needed and wanted to do and not been able to is to use my production monitor while I'm recording, monitor and control sound, zoomed in more, known when my highlights were blowing, had more control over auto-focus, been able to see better in the viewfinder, been able to have more buttons do what I want, not had to remove pulldown in post, and most importantly, been able to shoot in crazy lighting conditions without banding, etc.

Hence why I have a GH2 preorder. I'll be holding onto the GH13 as well though.
 
Why are you arguing about this? All I'm saying is that the GH2 is not a "renamed GH13" as mapombo erroneously suggests - they have many nonshared features in both directions! It's a statement of fact.
 
Ben_B said:
Ok this statement is crazy...first of all bitrate and B-frames are a big change, secondly:

Drastically improved low-light performance.
Live HDMI out.
Manual audio level controls.
1:1 1080p telephoto crop mode.
24PN.
Highlight indicating feature.
Ultra-fast auto focus.
Touch auto-focus.
More programmable function buttons.
Higher resolution viewfinder.
Click to expand...
Please keep in mind that autofocus is ultra-fast in stills mode only. In video mode, especially in 24p it will be quite slow, but no different than GH1(3).
 
lpowell said:
Please don't embarrass yourself this way. The pros here are debating whether they need Zeiss CP.2's or can make do with ZF's on the AF100.
Click to expand...

That is a true statement there. I for one will be happy to have the pleasure of a real video camera... but I'm also getting the GH2 as a B cam. I can think of nothing better than having all the tools I've come to expect with the added option of the interchangable lenses, and a big sensor... Sometimes the process is as much of a necessity as the end results...
 
svecher said:
Please keep in mind that autofocus is ultra-fast in stills mode only. In video mode, especially in 24p it will be quite slow, but no different than GH1(3).
Click to expand...


This is not the case with certain lenses like the 14-140mm AFAIK. They slowed down the auto-focus speed with lenses like the 20mm f/1.7 to avoid noise, but the HD lenses (of which the 14-140mm is the only one presently, and which I use quite often, probably around 40% of the time) has perfectly fast and silent auto-focus on the GH1, as fast as the stills mode, and I assume it will on GH2 as well.
 
This is not related to lenses.
If sensor mode allow only 24fps (and it is fo in 1080p24 mode) focus speed will be the same as on GH1.
But in interlaced modes, especially 60i, focus will be much faster (due to 60fps).
 
720/60p mode as well? Yeah I could see how this is the case. In any case, I am more interested in the precision of the auto-focus than the speed. Also the touch will be useful...are they enabling motion tracking auto-focus in video? Anyone know? I am so sick of the auto-focus seeking at randomly weird times, particularly with the 20mm f/1.7...I am a little unclear on this but can we get an actual AFS mode with this lens? Seems limited to AFC even when on AFS switch.
 
mapombo said:
Back to track, here's how I see it:
  • GH2's sensor is worse than GH1's, that's a fact. It comes from physics, fitting more pixels in the same area. Also, preliminary evidence shows the banding issue is fixed in software, not in sensor
  • GH2 footage may or not be inferior to GH13 as of yet, but will for sure beat it in the forthcoming months. Back in Japan they won't allow themselves to be humiliated twice. What may need to be addressed will be so via firmware release.
  • GH2 will never be hackable. It's firmware is most likely encrypted, as there's nothing special to it. Pana is already doing so in older models, and they don't actually need any hardware shift to make it happen. It's the actual firmware that implements the decoding before writing to ROM.
  • Pana payed close attention to this forum, so it was actually quite worth it. They made GH13 official, but it didn't come for free: they renamed it to GH2 and made us pay for it. As a bonus, they gave us some other very rerquested stuff that would take a long time to achieve in assembly: faster focus and HDMI out, plus some marketing bullshit.
  • GH13 is a dead end. Anyone willing to buy one will now get an improved GH2 version, but with no future. They will have to pray it never breakes, or it will be downgraded to GH1 by service centers. And the hack evolution is likely to freeze, as more and more people sell it on ebay trying to still get a premium value back, and the supporting community goes to extinction. And Vitaly won't be hacking for an empty crowd!
My advice to all:
  • If you're a pro, sell your GH13 now and go for a GH2!
  • If you're a casual shooter, buy a GH13 after christmas on ebay, as they'll be selling for under £200 by then.
Click to expand...

What? This post is bi-polar and contradicting. First you state the GH2's sensor is worse than the GH1.3, then you state Pansonic made the GH1.3 official by making the GH2, then you say the GH2 may be inferior but firmware is going to fix it? Firmware is NOT going to go above 24 mbit - that is their official spec.

THEN, you tell pros to sell the GH13 now and get GH2s, and casual users to get a GH1.3? Are you mad boy? Have you taken your lithium today? A casual user would NEVER enter into the realm of HACKING a camera. You've got your wires crossed.
 
Vitaliy Kiselev said:
This is not related to lenses.
If sensor mode allow only 24fps (and it is fo in 1080p24 mode) focus speed will be the same as on GH1.
But in interlaced modes, especially 60i, focus will be much faster (due to 60fps).
Click to expand...

According to Panasonic the GH1's focus worked at 60 FPS even in the 24 FPS(embedded in 1080i) mode. The GH2 operates its focusing at 120 FPS. It is not all together clear but it sounds like the focusing frame rate(120 FPS) is entirely different than the sensor's capture frame rate(60 FPS) and both of those are independent of the final output frame rate(24, 25, 30, 50, or 60 FPS).

http://www.panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh2/high_speed.html


 

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It seems I have to express myself in more words to be fully undertstood:
  1. Sensor:
    • It's worse in what relates to image quality. It's the worse Pixel Pitch by far of any decent SLR. It was a pure marketing play to increase it's resolution. Every single one interested in image quality would have chosen to keep resolution and just increase maximum scan speed
    • Maximum scan speed seems to have increased, though it remains to be proven the GH1 sensor cant achieve it as well
    • 24pn was already on GH13, just required some tuning in the algorithm, so sensor was up to it. Should they have not come up with GH2, there would be by now several developers implementing multiple ReFrames and CABAC in GH13, even in ASM!
    • Fast Focus: comes with increaded scan speed
  2. Firmware:
    • High ISO/Low lighr performance: This is done in software. Would have been achieved also in GH13
    • Live HDMI: This would have been trickyer, so that's a win for Pana
    • Manual Audio Levels: Soon to have been done in GH13
    • Telephoto: No big deal, easy to implement in GH13 on a later stage
    • Touch Auto-Focus: Marketing bullshit
    • Higher Res Viewfinder: Another Marketing bullshit. No one will tell the difference
  3. GH13 development is a dead end: Ask Vitaly!
  4. GH2 will never be hacked (at least in the first 2 years): Wanna put some money on it?
  5. Pro's dont buy GHX: You are joking, right?
  6. Non-Prox don't hack GH1: Another you are joking too? Want to make a poll?
  7. Me being bypolar: I just make a very simple statement:
    • GH2 may be worse or better than GH13. If worse, will be better soon (except in IQ)
    • If you are going to use the camera a lot, it will likely need servicing sometime, so cut loss and sell NOW
    • If you're into amateur/hobby stuff and don't use the camera a lot, it will live for another two years without service. Keep your GH13, buy one after christmas, or sell it now and buy another after christmas, unless you into shooting Santa
    • If you don't case so much about macroblocking or even notice what mud is in a lot of sample shots in this forum, get a plain simple easy unhackable GH1 on ebay after christmas
 
mapombo said:
  1. Sensor:
    • It's worse in what relates to image quality. It's the worse Pixel Pitch by far of any decent SLR. It was a pure marketing play to increase it's resolution. Every single one interested in image quality would have chosen to keep resolution and just increase maximum scan speed
Click to expand...

They increased the resolution so that the teleconverter feature would work at 2.6x and 3.9x. It wasn't an accident that they choose those zoom values. They work out to give ideal focal lengths(36mm, 52mm, 55mm, and 78mm) with the 14mm and 20mm lenses. Panasonic has very high hopes for their teleconverter feature.
 
mpgxsvcd said:
According to Panasonic the GH1's focus worked at 60 FPS even in the 24 FPS(embedded in 1080i) mode. The GH2 operates its focusing at 120 FPS. It is not all together clear but it sounds like the focusing frame rate(120 FPS) is entirely different than the sensor's capture frame rate(60 FPS) and both of those are independent of the final output frame rate(24, 25, 30, 50, or 60 FPS).
Click to expand...
IIRC, GH1's sensor was only capable of 24/25 fps in 1080 mode. Unlike for Ben, the differences in focusing speed in 24p and still mode are quite obvious to me.

For GH2, all the references on the page you listed are for stills mode. While GH2 is capable of sampling 60 fps at 1920x1080 it has been stated earlier by richtrav that Live View mode (which operates at 120fps) has visible resolution loss as opposed to when camera records (in 24 or 60i modes). While I can see how theoretically it would be possible to sample the sensor at full 120fps to use each frame for autofocus algorithm and extract every 5th frame to produce a 24fps output stream doing so would require a minimum shutter of 1/120s, which is not very cinematic. Given this and hardware limitations I'm quite sure that GH2 operates similar to GH1 in this matter -- switches sensor mode to 24 fps in Cinema Mode., which means that focus speed will be 5x slower in Cinema Mode or 2x slower in 60 fps modes than in Live View mode.
 
mpgxsvcd said:
According to Panasonic the GH1's focus worked at 60 FPS even in the 24 FPS(embedded in 1080i) mode. The GH2 operates its focusing at 120 FPS. It is not all together clear but it sounds like the focusing frame rate(120 FPS) is entirely different than the sensor's capture frame rate(60 FPS) and both of those are independent of the final output frame rate(24, 25, 30, 50, or 60 FPS).
Click to expand...

I don't see here any mention of 120fps focusing in 24fps mode.
It is just impossible.
120fps is special mode used in liveview.
 
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