Finally saw GH2 footage first hand.. I am not upgrading. Staying with GH1.3

[Justyn]

I think it would be an explosion on a big bang scale. I can see your point but anyone on this site knows fair well how these things can flame out of control. I'm just hoping to see it deliver as I want' onboard during the hack days and frankly the GH1 lacked a few things that I thought were necessary.. and now with the AF100 I"m interested in this again. I think the AF100 will make more people look to this as a Bcamera and also as a way to get the 14-140 in a cheaper capacity. I'll then just be using the lens and shooting with a proper videocamera. All this DSLR business is kind of a like a hooker you don't want to be seen with.... or one that you don't really pay for sex, you pay for them to leave.. lol

Hey, either way, we'll see how it all pans out and I for one will be looking for the big boy 4/3ds camera....

 

[Camera Expert]

I think it can be a bit subjective. For me I'm also heavily into photography and although a lot of my images are very good, I've had a few photos from events look worse than what I would have liked and reading that the auto focusing is at least 2x better makes a big difference for me. As for videos, if I'm shooting a concert with very little lighting, I have to open up the 20mm lens a lot and this causets the focusing to work a lot harder and never mind the fact that I start to see a little banding starting at around 500 ISO. From what I'm seeing, the GH2 is greatly improved. If I were to shoot in 24p, I don't have to worry about removing pull down and with the hack, the GH1 can shoot native 24p but is is really that reliable? At around 35Mbps, I think the motion in the GH1 would be about the same as the motion in the GH2 and it's true that having the bit rate at around 50Mbps may help the motion but at the same time you should get less noticeable aliasing and moire in the GH2 so theirs a trade off. Basically it depends on what your shooting so either the GH13 or the GH2 will m be better for certain situations. Again this mostly depends on your priories. I know with the few issues I've had, the GH2 will work and for people who want better motion quality and willing to take a chance with an extra high bit rate, it'll work for them. I'm into having better motion myself. Trust me on that one but with all of the benefits of the GH2 combined, that's making up for it.

Speaking of the TM700, I'm in a bit of a situation. For shooting events in broad daylight, I'd much rather have the TM700 than the GH1 or GH2 since the picture quality is really incredible shooting 1080 60p( I've downloaded a bunch of native samples) but I keep convincing myself to get the GH2. Besides the points I mentioned, the tele crop mode is really a killer feature. We still need to see more results, that's for sure but just think about how incredible having a 3.9x crop and a 2.6x crop in the 720p and the 1080p/i modes respectively would be if it really is as good as a lot of people hoping.

I would like to have both the GH2 and the TM700 or possibly the SDT750/TM700 but I've spend a lot of money building a computer to the specs of my choosing and instead of getting a regular computer monitor I've decided to purchase a 32" EX710 which is Sony's top of the line set in that size for $800. Again it's really killing me. Just for fun I decided to edit some TM700 clips in Premiere and it's no different than editing Mini DV files. I was thinking that if I spent less on that computer I would have been able get both the GH2 and the TM700 but seeing how powerful that computer is, I'm starting to be more comfortable with the money I spent. In case your wondering, it was $2,300 on the computer which includes the cost of building it and an extended warranty. Some of the parts such as the solid state drive as my C Drive and the 950 processor was much cheaper than the competition and for parts that were more expensive, they priced matched it to Tiger Direct and NewEgg such as the GTX 470 card. The computer ended up costing more than I originally planned since I got slightly carried away with keeping the specs looking decent but at least I definitely got a lot of value for that price. I still might choose to have both. What would really help me would be to make my college loans disappear. Not only would I get both the GH2 and the more expensive SDT750, I'd also get the AF100 if I didn't have any loans.

 

[chon]

I've seen this before.... and I completely agree and applaud Lynch for that clip.

<off topic>

Lynch is a notorious control freak, he had some of his films released on DVD without chapter break. He's falling behind the times and doesn't understand these choices doesn't belong to his generation (cell phone viewing). Also, the childish language and lack of cohesive argumentation in his rant is disappointing. I would have hoped to hear a more rational message from such a smart director, but the cult he is part of (transcendental meditation) seems to have washed away his reasoning ability. Right now he's so busy developing his cult chapter; the so called "David Lynch Foundation" which is nothing but a veiled attempt top brainwash school students; that he has stopped working on real film. As much as I enjoyed some of the films he directed, I've grown to loathe the individual. He is all but a cultist now, everything he says in public is tainted by that black and withe thinking.

</off topic>

 

[Blackout]

Most directors have to be somewhat of a control freak or they wouldn't be directors.

I don't know enough to comment or defend the man's character and personal traits - but I absolutely agree with his statement about not being able to experience a film on a cell phone. Just because you saw some framing and heard tin sounding audio and got the story - does not mean you experienced and were immersed in the film.
Again - all this work goes into it and you're going to watch "Gone With the Wind" or Citizen Kane on a 3 inch display?

Blech...

 

[mapombo]

The cost of upgrade from GH13 body to GH2 body is only $100 for me. Plus getting 14-140 at $600. This is no brainer upgrade. It is my main photo and video camera.

Can you share with us mortals how to achieve this? GH13 is selling for €400 used in ebay (£350, $600), and the GH2 Body Only sells for £800 (€950, $1300) in the UK.

So at least $700 difference, and with the GH2 launch date getting closer the ebay GH13 prices are also dropping fast!

 

[MR Fanny]

I converted that clip to Cineform avi and stepped through it at 1:1 pixels, frame by frame. For the life of me, I cannot see blocking in the faces - it looks great! How were you inspecting the footage?

with Elecard streameye native mts file. went individually through I P and B frames. The shadows in the building also bugged me as well as the leaves just above the cyclists faces in front of the building. they just didnt look resolved, whether it be because it was out of focus or in the shadows, it looked like clean mud..haha if that makes any sense. the shape of the leaves are there just missing the detail. all blurred out like heavy noise reduction.

I can't say that my patched gh1 will produce better or worse quality unless i was there shooting both side by side. It's just my observation of the clip, take from it what you may. It just didn't wow me thats all like the first time we saw muddless footage from pappasart. now that was a day to remember=)

 

[mimirsan]

I guess what I am trying to say is chill out. A GH13 is a fine camera. However, it still only has about ¾ of the resolution that the Panasonic HDC-SDT750 has. So if the GH2 isn’t good enough for you why is the GH13 good enough? If quality is that important to you then you would have the T750 or even a RED.

Let me say.
The TM750 is great in good light...not very good at all in lowlight (great for a camcorder but not in comparisons to dslrs) and loses detail and gets fuzzier the higher you up push its "db" ....also image can breakup a bit with quick pans when shooting lots of detail (sound familiar?).
I had a hold on one recently and sorry "res" specs and all the GH1 is a vastly better camera...even more so with the hack. Nice autofocus,ois and zoom though

BTW
really if the guys happy with his "GH13's" why should he not be? Is the GH1 crap now?

 

[Blackout]

Again... I was hoping for a better image than my GH1.3s can produce... but I just did not get that. I wish I could post a/b comparisons of the same shots and SHOW you, but I couldn't take the clips from the GH2 with me, and could not put my own card in the camera or I would have done so. I'm not out to discourage anyone... just reporting on what I saw - I hope it WAS a virus ridden pre production model cursed by the God's of Azroth, and that the cursed gets lifted, the bugs fixed, the codec improved. I hope is does get fixed, AND hacked, and that it blows my GH1.3s out of the water, and I'll buy 3 GH2s, and there will be world peace for ever after.

As of what I saw CURRENTLY... it did not... we shall see what happens when everyone GETS their pre-orders.

- Blackout

 

[GMC]

If you watched it on vimeo.... you think you watched it, but you didn't.. you were cheated. It's such a sadness...If you think you watched the hacked GH1.3s glory on your f&^#ng vimeo account.... :nads:


and yes I do have a huge file of it somewhere, Gunther where are you!?!? Chime in! Save your masterpiece from the evil clutches of the GH2 evil hoard!

Haha, thats absolutely funny! I just chimed in after some longer absence from Internet and forums ... I had to laugh out load to see people discussing my little piece on vimeo (http://vimeo.com/15480369)! Thank you guys for having a look at my work ;-)

Just some statements here: I shot this with the hack at a moderate 38/40/42 bitrate setting in native 24p mode with an old PTool from June 2010, which seems to work quite well with some very occasional freezes (on this Tuscany vid the GH13 freezed about 3 times in 2 weeks). Which means I roughly get about 32mb/s on my clips. Thats OK, but could be improved but my experience with higher bitrate settings was that it freezed much more often and I want to stay with native 24p.

The vimeo (downloadable) version is encoded in H264 with an average bitrate of 10mbits/s (313MByte for 4mins and 4sec). Thats a VERY moderate bitrate setting for full HD which could lead to some of the observed faults but I see no reason for higher bitrates (and my internet connection would not allow much bigger filesizes to upload btw). I am not a pixel peeper and for me filming is about emotions, and stunning images. Resolution is not my highest priority. I mean, watch TV every day - full of macroblocking and horrible artefacts. The GH13 is almost perfect in comparison and fine for me, but as I am looking for a second cam I might pick up a GH2 in Osaka soon. Lets see if the price is reasonable.

Thats my 2 cent.

Have fun filming guys, Gunther

 

[Blackout]

Love your work Gunther and keep in mind I still want to use you as DP on my short.. so lets keep that dialog running... in order to avoid all re-compression artifacts, I always encode out to a 25mbit master sony avc mp4. I am actually paying the premium soon to start getting the super fast upload rates here in NYC because yeah, the files are huge.. but they are stunning...

Just for shites and googles.. here is the opening of a music video I am working on for a client... very very very rough cut still, lacking color correction and sound cleanup and only the opening sequence... and this was only encoded at 10mbit to give the client an idea of where I was heading, so you WILL see a lot of macro blocking from a 10mbit to youtube downgrade, but my actual raw footage at very high iso with the 1.7 pancake lens is quite stunning and block and streak free mostly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUndhn1e9Fk&fmt=37

PS: for those of you who don't know, adding &fmt=37 to youtube files that support 1080p forces it to play that way.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

Let me say.
The TM750 is great in good light...not very good at all in lowlight (great for a camcorder but not in comparisons to dslrs) and loses detail and gets fuzzier the higher you up push its "db" ....also image can breakup a bit with quick pans when shooting lots of detail (sound familiar?).
I had a hold on one recently and sorry "res" specs and all the GH1 is a vastly better camera...even more so with the hack. Nice autofocus,ois and zoom though

BTW
really if the guys happy with his "GH13's" why should he not be? Is the GH1 crap now?

Absolutely, if he is happy with the GH13 then that is what he should stick with. However, saying that the “GH2 footage is unusable” is a very dangerous statement. There are a lot of people that listen to statements like that and would choose to go with the GH13 instead. They may or may not be the best choice for them.

Blackout’s situation is a very unique one. He has said he is trying to achieve absolute best quality. However, he has apparently dismissed anything that does not meet his compression expectations in all situations.

The truth is that no camera will offer the absolute best quality in all situations. You can’t make a camera that can take optimal high frame rate low light video at the same time. Those two things contradict each other. The higher the frame rate/shutter speed the worse low light/ISO noise will be.

Basically, the only way Blackout will ever meet his expectations is if he buys one of each of the cameras because all excel in certain areas. Therefore, when he says the GH2 footage is unusable it is misleading. The GH2 footage he saw was unusable for his particular situation at that particular moment.

There are so many new features like the extra teleconversion function, intelligent resolution, and the enhanced auto focus that have not been fully tested. I would be very surprised if Blackout never runs into situations where those features would be helpful. Heck, it might some of those situations might even make his GH13 unusable.

I just thought it was too strong of a statement without fully testing every aspect of the new camera. For every situation he can show me where the GH2 is unusable I can show you a many more reasons why the GH1/GH13 is also unusable. Both are great cameras when used for what they were designed/hacked to do.

 

[mimirsan]

Can you share with us mortals how to achieve this? GH13 is selling for €400 used in ebay (£350, $600), and the GH2 Body Only sells for £800 (€950, $1300) in the UK.

So at least $700 difference, and with the GH2 launch date getting closer the ebay GH13 prices are also dropping fast!

I got a second gh1 with a spare battery for £260 here in the uk from Ebay...hardly used hackable too! ;-)

 

[Blackout]

Absolutely, if he is happy with the GH13 then that is what he should stick with. However, saying that the “GH2 footage is unusable” is a very dangerous statement. There are a lot of people that listen to statements like that and would choose to go with the GH13 instead. They may or may not be the best choice for them.

Blackout’s situation is a very unique one. He has said he is trying to achieve absolute best quality. However, he has apparently dismissed anything that does not meet his compression expectations in all situations.

The truth is that no camera will offer the absolute best quality in all situations. You can’t make a camera that can take optimal high frame rate low light video at the same time. Those two things contradict each other. The higher the frame rate/shutter speed the worse low light/ISO noise will be.

Basically, the only way Blackout will ever meet his expectations is if he buys one of each of the cameras because all excel in certain areas. Therefore, when he says the GH2 footage is unusable it is misleading. The GH2 footage he saw was unusable for his particular situation at that particular moment.

There are so many new features like the extra teleconversion function, intelligent resolution, and the enhanced auto focus that have not been fully tested. I would be very surprised if Blackout never runs into situations where those features would be helpful. Heck, it might some of those situations might even make his GH13 unusable.

I just thought it was too strong of a statement without fully testing every aspect of the new camera. For every situation he can show me where the GH2 is unusable I can show you a many more reasons why the GH1/GH13 is also unusable. Both are great cameras when used for what they were designed/hacked to do.

You are misquoting me. I did not say "The GH2 footage is unusable" anywhere in this thread. I said that to me, in the GH2 I was able to use, the high motion high detail footage still has serious issues, I'm sticking with the GH1.3 for now.

My exact words, "I am not satisfied and am not upgrading. There is still mud, noise, streaking and issues with 24 mbit, and I shot some complex monitors and patterns and saw mud."

So for what I am shooting... I have a lot of action and movement and detail in a lot of scenes... the
GH2 doesn't appear to be the answer, yet I am sure on a lot of non bitrate demanding things it will produce a stunning image.

What I said I considered "unusable" was that one clip from Japan with the mud all over the wall and shadow areas. That was hand held, not shot so great.. and if the native file is that blocky / mushy - then the render will be even worse. I didn't say the entire camera is unusable. The other footage that was mostly tripod shot had a lot less motion looked very stunning, so I agree with you, you could probably easily mix footage and use both cams.

I really just want to see a hacked GH2....

 

[mimirsan]

@mpgxsvcd
Y'know what? Agree with points you made there!
But you was recommending a TM750 ,which isnt all its made out to be ...thats also dangerous as it could convince folks to buy one over a GH2 ;-) hahah!

I do think there is way too much pixel peeping and speculation over a camera that has not been totally released to the worldwide public.

Im kinda from the "if you want to save money get a hackable GH1" "If you want the latest camera now with new features get a GH2" crowd.

I for example would rather take the opportunity to buy another cheap GH1 while everyone else sells theirs over buying a GH2 asap...it just does not warrent the extra cost.
But thats just me (Im a tight bastard!)

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Most directors have to be somewhat of a control freak or they wouldn't be directors.

I don't know enough to comment or defend the man's character and personal traits - but I absolutely agree with his statement about not being able to experience a film on a cell phone. Just because you saw some framing and heard tin sounding audio and got the story - does not mean you experienced and were immersed in the film.
Again - all this work goes into it and you're going to watch "Gone With the Wind" or Citizen Kane on a 3 inch display?

Blech...

Well sure... but some of us lowly mortals don't have access to Christies and actual theater projection rooms... I have thought about going about 2 miles down the road, to a local theater chain headquarters that did install Christies in all their theaters, and as 'Could I borrow one of your theaters for some projection tests'...

Even when I got my short in to a fest at one of the theaters... the program director put me in the 'kiddie' pool with the DVD projection in a regular office... at least I got an IMDB page out of the fest entry...

 

[Camera Expert]

Let me say.
The TM750 is great in good light...not very good at all in lowlight (great for a camcorder but not in comparisons to dslrs) and loses detail and gets fuzzier the higher you up push its "db" ....also image can breakup a bit with quick pans when shooting lots of detail (sound familiar?).
I had a hold on one recently and sorry "res" specs and all the GH1 is a vastly better camera...even more so with the hack. Nice autofocus,ois and zoom though

Can you post some of that native TM750 footage that breaks up? That's assuming you shot it in 1080 60p in very good lighting.

 

[mimirsan]

Can you post some of that native TM750 footage that breaks up? That's assuming you shot it in 1080 60p in very good lighting.

I dont have the camera anymore went back for a refund and original files deleted ...I wanted a camcorder for general shooting and I was very impressed with the uber resolution in good light.
I then shot in the evening indoors (not even dark just dim light) and was let down (you can up the db but loses detail fast and ups noise...I dont get this with high bitrate gh1 25p avchd at iso800,no noise, showing more light also).

I shot 50p (pal model) on a sunny day there was breakup when I panned from a lot of long grass,some roses to a shaded area of concrete. It seems the codec is not unbreakable.

I maybe should of done some "vs" tests before sending back....dont get me wrong as far as prosumer camcorders go its one of the best and in daylight astounding...just did not cut it well in dimly lit situations..I found even the xacti hd2000 does a better lowlight job even! rogar-Shock(DBG):

 

[Blackout]

Well sure... but some of us lowly mortals don't have access to Christies and actual theater projection rooms... I have thought about going about 2 miles down the road, to a local theater chain headquarters that did install Christies in all their theaters, and as 'Could I borrow one of your theaters for some projection tests'...

Even when I got my short in to a fest at one of the theaters... the program director put me in the 'kiddie' pool with the DVD projection in a regular office... at least I got an IMDB page out of the fest entry...

Yeah but what I am saying is, if I see a film come out that i want to see, whether it be a fellow film maker's indy short, or a big hollywood production, I really WANT to see it on a screen, projected, for the first time, if at all possible. Not on a DVD or youtube or iphone. Now I have a home theater system at home that rivals what I can go to the movies and pay $12.50 for.. and you are basically watching a glorified blu-ray anyway when you go to cinemas now anyway.

But I digress - my point is...

Hey man, you're doing good - at least you made a film, got into a fest, and projected it in front of an audience.. and got some cred in imdb...that's what it's all about. This forum does have the subtitle "the online community for film making" not "the online community for taking home videos of your kids in 3D" so I expect a certain creative drive in this place... not people just trying to put youtube videos of their dog up (which I did to test the hack when I first got it... thats one CLEAR dog I have!).

I know not everyone here is trying to make films, but that's what I'm into, and I'll tell you a secret, the best deal in projection right now is the Epson 8350. It is so outstanding I can't even begin to tell you, and as you can tell from this thread, I am an insane quality nut.. and if you look you can find one for $1200.. it's 2000 lumens and 50,000:1 contrast 1920 x 1080p and is absolutely mind blowing awesome - (would have cost you $20,000 5 years ago) so you don't need to be some trust fund baby to really start making films and projecting them at a very very HIGH end level.

For a while.. film makers were kind of screwed because film was too prohibited and expensive and this gen or gen before didn't grow up with real 8mm film camera access all over the house like Steven Spielburg... there was a generation that got f&^&ed as far as film making goes... there was VHS, hi8, s-vhs for a while... then the best you had was DV.. but now... holy crap man I have to stop myself sometimes and remind myself just HOW close to Hollywood we can get for this little amount of money. The revolution in film making is happening NOW like it did for the music industry 15 years or so ago when people started recording albums at home and being able to release them commercially and no one new the wiser. Film/video took a loooooong time to catch up but we're there, and it's only getting better and better.. the big thing now is EVERYONE I meet buys a few grand digital cam and thinks they are a director film maker... but only one out of 80 projects I work on has any salt. Film making takes experience.. it's the most all inclusive insane art form we have as humans, and you just have to keep making them to learn it.

Viva la revolution!

 

[mpgxsvcd]

@mpgxsvcd
Y'know what? Agree with points you made there!
But you was recommending a TM750 ,which isnt all its made out to be ...thats also dangerous as it could convince folks to buy one over a GH2 ;-) hahah!

I do think there is way too much pixel peeping and speculation over a camera that has not been totally released to the worldwide public.

Im kinda from the "if you want to save money get a hackable GH1" "If you want the latest camera now with new features get a GH2" crowd.

I for example would rather take the opportunity to buy another cheap GH1 while everyone else sells theirs over buying a GH2 asap...it just does not warrent the extra cost.
But thats just me (Im a tight bastard!)

Actually, the TM750 is just about your only choice if you absolutely must shoot 1080p @ 60 FPS. It is not that bad. It does have the highest resolvable resolution of any consumer camera. That has to be useful to someone, right?

 

[Lpowell]

I know not everyone here is trying to make films, but that's what I'm into, and I'll tell you a secret, the best deal in projection right now is the Epson 8350. It is so outstanding I can't even begin to tell you, and as you can tell from this thread, I am an insane quality nut.. and if you look you can find one for $1200.. it's 2000 lumens and 50,000:1 contrast

How do you think the Epson 8350 compares to the 9500? The 9500 can be had for as low as $1900, has an anamorphic 2.35:1 mode, and boasts 200,000:1 contrast ratio in 12-bit color depth. OTOH, the 9500's max lumens is only 1600 versus the 8350's 2000 lumens. Is 2000 really practical considering lamp life? Perhaps it's a moot issue, since reviews say the calibrated theater modes put out less than half the rated lumens of the projector anyway.