Well...observing directors at work is at least a little bit educational, if you pay attention...
Filmschool Rant...
- Thread starter Adam J McKay
- Start date
Well...observing directors at work is at least a little bit educational, if you pay attention...
Drew Ott
Wish I were banned.
Storytelling isn't "taught" by any one source. Good storytelling comes from a life of experiences.
Being on set teaches WAY more about working with actors than a textbook ever could. The other parts of directing (shot selection, leadership, etc.), I think, can also be learned better on a set through observation than in a classroom.
I think an infinite number of things can be learned on set. It's a pretty sad outlook to never try to learn anything other than how to work as a crewmember while on set.
I'm not trying to say that classroom style learning isn't extremely helpful. I've spent more time reading textbooks about film than being on set, but it just seems lazy to think of filmmaking as a mindless application of knowledge learned directly from textbooks. Both kinds of learning are important and necessary.
Here's one thing filmschool can give you, structure. You have to make films each year, you are required to get off your ass and make stuff. And in the process of making films you're given a good grasp of the basics and taught how to tell a story and develop your own voice.
And along the way you're also given a great network of people and support and faculty and equipment, and equipment insurance and taught the soup to nuts of filmmaking. I think a very small handful of people rolling through DVXuser actually develop all these skills. Some develop one or two, filmschool is meant to give you a grounding in all of them.
The first year of any filmschool is meant to ground you in the basic building blocks. If you're experienced it can be a little boring for you to have to deal with your classmates just learning the ropes. Then again if you're smart you can take advantage of your experience and use it to shoot your classmates projects and take your skills to the next level.
Filmschool is full of people who are all there to make films, that's a great asset. Some are more talented than others, and some are serious and some are there to mess around, but it's a tremendous asset when you have 30 other people in a class to learn from. I learned a lot from filmschool and even more from my classmates. If you're lucky and have a class with some diversity you might get the benefit of a cultural film exchange.
I find the people who knock filmschool the most have the biggest chips on their shoulders about not doing it. And coming in a close second are those who had a bad experience with an egotistical film student who thought he/she was God. Guess what, there are plenty of those experiences to be had out there with people who didn't go to filmschool.
Get over it, go out and make a film instead of ranting about this dead horse topic.
And along the way you're also given a great network of people and support and faculty and equipment, and equipment insurance and taught the soup to nuts of filmmaking. I think a very small handful of people rolling through DVXuser actually develop all these skills. Some develop one or two, filmschool is meant to give you a grounding in all of them.
The first year of any filmschool is meant to ground you in the basic building blocks. If you're experienced it can be a little boring for you to have to deal with your classmates just learning the ropes. Then again if you're smart you can take advantage of your experience and use it to shoot your classmates projects and take your skills to the next level.
Filmschool is full of people who are all there to make films, that's a great asset. Some are more talented than others, and some are serious and some are there to mess around, but it's a tremendous asset when you have 30 other people in a class to learn from. I learned a lot from filmschool and even more from my classmates. If you're lucky and have a class with some diversity you might get the benefit of a cultural film exchange.
I find the people who knock filmschool the most have the biggest chips on their shoulders about not doing it. And coming in a close second are those who had a bad experience with an egotistical film student who thought he/she was God. Guess what, there are plenty of those experiences to be had out there with people who didn't go to filmschool.
Get over it, go out and make a film instead of ranting about this dead horse topic.
cordvision
Well-known member
I'm going to film school (Chapman University) and I think it is totally worth it... let me tell you why.
I thought a lot about going to film school or not and finally came to the conclusion that it totally depends on what school you can get into. Let me elaborate: You can go to a film school that charges a $1000+ per unit or to a community college that charges $20 per unit and you probably get about the same theoretical knowledge out of it. Many teachers that teach at schools like NYU, Chapman, UCLA and USC also teach at community colleges, where they teach the exact same material. Also, you can pretty much learn everything yourself from books and message boards that you learn "in class" (I hardly learned anything so far in actual classes). So why did I choose to go to film school and why can I justify to spend so much money for it. I think what makes a film school worth its money, is what facilities they can offer, and the hands on experience you get. Within the first 5 weeks at my film school, I got to shoot several hundred feet of 16mm film, reversal and negative (vision2) film, I got to practice with an arri 16s/b and an sr2, I learned how to operate a sound stage (elephant door, hoists, scissor lifts, ventilation systems etc.), I learned the basics of handling 10k's, hmi's etc, I got to learn the basics of a lot of high end software I couldn't afford (we have everything from maya, avid, protools etc.) to name a few things. This is just the beginning. We do a lot of hands on work, I will be part of several advanced productions (all shooting on film this semester) in various positions which will give me a lot of experience. Some of this things I named seem to be "banal things", like learning how to operate a scissor lift but I think depending on what job you want to work on later, those things can be very helpful to know. My school offers me to learn on equipment I probably would never have access to if I would just make my own movies (Ex: we have a 4K Spirit that is operated by students). I get to practice with the very same equipment I will find in the "real world" which I think is a huge advantage. Also, I will have worked on dozens of productions using this equipment so I should have a firm grasp of how to work it and I will also have a nice showreel.
I think it isn't worth to go to film school for the actual classes, but for the facilities/practical experience it can offer you. Therefore, I think it is really important that you pick a school that is very hands on and offers great facilities....
I thought a lot about going to film school or not and finally came to the conclusion that it totally depends on what school you can get into. Let me elaborate: You can go to a film school that charges a $1000+ per unit or to a community college that charges $20 per unit and you probably get about the same theoretical knowledge out of it. Many teachers that teach at schools like NYU, Chapman, UCLA and USC also teach at community colleges, where they teach the exact same material. Also, you can pretty much learn everything yourself from books and message boards that you learn "in class" (I hardly learned anything so far in actual classes). So why did I choose to go to film school and why can I justify to spend so much money for it. I think what makes a film school worth its money, is what facilities they can offer, and the hands on experience you get. Within the first 5 weeks at my film school, I got to shoot several hundred feet of 16mm film, reversal and negative (vision2) film, I got to practice with an arri 16s/b and an sr2, I learned how to operate a sound stage (elephant door, hoists, scissor lifts, ventilation systems etc.), I learned the basics of handling 10k's, hmi's etc, I got to learn the basics of a lot of high end software I couldn't afford (we have everything from maya, avid, protools etc.) to name a few things. This is just the beginning. We do a lot of hands on work, I will be part of several advanced productions (all shooting on film this semester) in various positions which will give me a lot of experience. Some of this things I named seem to be "banal things", like learning how to operate a scissor lift but I think depending on what job you want to work on later, those things can be very helpful to know. My school offers me to learn on equipment I probably would never have access to if I would just make my own movies (Ex: we have a 4K Spirit that is operated by students). I get to practice with the very same equipment I will find in the "real world" which I think is a huge advantage. Also, I will have worked on dozens of productions using this equipment so I should have a firm grasp of how to work it and I will also have a nice showreel.
I think it isn't worth to go to film school for the actual classes, but for the facilities/practical experience it can offer you. Therefore, I think it is really important that you pick a school that is very hands on and offers great facilities....
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Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
I think at some point we have to recognize that this becomes a circular argument. Speaking only for myself, I have never said that there was anything wrong with going to film school, or any college. I was merely pointing out that film school (or any other higher ed) is not the best choice for everyone, despite what benefits it may offer. You can argue that film school will teach you how to direct (or whatever skill you choose). That is sometimes true. But I have worked with film school grads that have shown me that is not always the case.
The variety of opinions and experiences here should underscore that there is no one way to do anything. Make the best choices you can at any given moment with the information that you have. Then move on. Don't rely on regurgitated opinions from either side of an argument. Do your own homework, understand your own goals and motivation and then take responsibility for whatever decision you make. You will sometimes make choices that will, in hindsight, seem like mistakes. Everyone does. But if you make choices according to what you actually want as opposed to what other people tell you, at least you will know you are on the right path.
The variety of opinions and experiences here should underscore that there is no one way to do anything. Make the best choices you can at any given moment with the information that you have. Then move on. Don't rely on regurgitated opinions from either side of an argument. Do your own homework, understand your own goals and motivation and then take responsibility for whatever decision you make. You will sometimes make choices that will, in hindsight, seem like mistakes. Everyone does. But if you make choices according to what you actually want as opposed to what other people tell you, at least you will know you are on the right path.
adamr316
Well-known member
I run a small production company and when people submit applications to me the FIRST thing I look at is their demo reel. If their reel sucks I skip them.
I don't care what school (if any) they went to. If they have a stellar reel and references they are that much closer to being hired.
I don't care what school (if any) they went to. If they have a stellar reel and references they are that much closer to being hired.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Life experiences give you the basis to tell your own story. But the art of storytelling is definitely a learnable/studyable subject, as is the language of film, and many other things that will not be learned by hanging around on a set.
With all due respect, I fervently and vehemently disagree that being on a set teaches anyone anything really worth knowing about being a director. Let's try another profession and hopefully the analogy will be made clear: would you say that hanging around in an emergency room teaches someone to be a doctor?
You may see what a director does with his actors, and say "ooh, that's a good technique, I'll use that!" But if you don't understand why he did it that specific way, with those specific actors, in that specific circumstance, then I submit that it's no more relevant and certainly no more safe than the emergency-room observer watching a doctor perform a specific medical procedure and then making a note of "oooh, wow, that worked well, I'll be sure to use that next time!"
Being on a set no more teaches someone to be a director, than being on a construction site teaches anyone to be an architect.
A sad outlook? It's reality. You can learn many jobs on a set, but what you will learn will at most (at MOST) qualify you to do those set-oriented jobs that you observed. You can learn some thigns about how to be a production coordinator through observation, you can learn some things about how to be a grip/electric by observation, you can learn some things about how to do a lot of jobs. But without someone directly teaching you, observation will only get you so far. Take an electric, for example -- I dare say that if someone has only observed, rather than studied (yes, in textbooks, or with a mentor) then sooner or later that electrician is going to fry himself to death.
If that was in reference to what I said, it's a complete misunderstanding of the point. "mindless application of textbooks"? Of course not. I don't care how much schooling someone has had, if they've never been on a set before, I don't want them on mine. And I don't care how much schooling someone hasn't had, as long as they know how to do the job, with a great attitude and a solid work ethic, they're welcome. I've never asked any crew member what college degree they have.
However, let me be clear on this -- I have run into hundreds of crew members who all believe they are directors, and not one of them (not a single one of them) could direct traffic, much less a movie that anyone would want to watch. Their entire studying of directing came from watching movies and being on sets. And again, I say that no more qualifies someone to be a director than hanging around in an emergency room qualifies someone to be a doctor.
Now, if someone's idea of being a director is that they're the one that calls "action" and tells the actors "do it again, but this time be angrier" then... yeah, that can be picked up real easy. But that's about as relevant to directing, as typing is to writing. Anyone can type, and you can probably learn how to type by watching other people type -- but that doesn't turn you into a writer.
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
I completely agree. The term director is thrown around a little too loosely for my taste. I realize that you have to call the person who is running the set something. But after working on lots of sets, I have met VERY FEW people that I would consider a director in the true sense of the word.
That is, someone who has some understanding and respect for all aspects of the process and communicates a clear vision effectively to the cast and crew around them while displaying leadership, encouragement and a sense of purpose.
Whether or not you acquire and hone those skills in film school or elsewhere is not relevant to me. That's why I love my job. The only two things that matter are whether I can deliver, and whether I can collaborate with others.
Drew Ott
Wish I were banned.
Barry, I don't think the analogies central to your argument are fair (comparing film, which is art/entertainment, to the medical field). I could choose other professions on the opposite end of the spectrum that represent an extreme example of my points, too.
Aside from that, I never said hanging around on set teaches you everything about directing. I just said that it can teach you something, and I stand by that. It's possible that you have never personally learned anything about directing while on set because you had already learned those things through more traditional methods, but as somebody who started getting on set before ever experiencing the traditional methods, I can tell you that it is possible (and probable if you have the right mindset).
I do agree with this though:
Aside from that, I never said hanging around on set teaches you everything about directing. I just said that it can teach you something, and I stand by that. It's possible that you have never personally learned anything about directing while on set because you had already learned those things through more traditional methods, but as somebody who started getting on set before ever experiencing the traditional methods, I can tell you that it is possible (and probable if you have the right mindset).
I do agree with this though:
This disqualifies at least three of the most commercially successful directors with whom I have worked...
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
I'm sure it does. But it's still something to aspire to. :beer:
Chamber005
Carbonite Member
I actually had an interesting college experience. I attended college for theatre and it was a bit of fun (not too different from high school in fact since I was in all behavioral and special ed classes throughout so there was a lot of freedom there, not so much with the rigorous structuring), but once I got into the "required" courses I realized that (as was typical), I would be unable to exist in the normal routine of things.
In english 101 we had to write papers on various lit that we read for the class. A little Shakespeare, Inferno -- the typical, but being unable to complete the assignments as assigned, I wrote stories regarding the characters in the readings or created new stories regarding the overall themes, always making sure to include the POINT of the essay assigned.
At first the TA gave me perfect marks and lots of praise. He then (unfortuantely) brought my writings to the attention of a professor (telling him that I should be moved from theatre into their more advanced writing programs), and the professor only told him that I was not allowed to write this sort of thing (these stories) in the place of essays. After that, every assignment I completed (sometimes writing 40 pages or more in the place of 3 page essays), and I got incompletes for every one of them, eventually failing the class.
I was able to take english 121 (as 101 was not a prerquisite), wherein the professor actually created a new kind of answer to the homework given to the class called "The creative option" specifically for me. In the end, though, I was unwilling to do what they asked of me in English 101 which meant I would never receive a degree. I stayed in college as long as I could to get as much experience as I could in theatre and in what writing classes I could attend without 101, but in the end I had to leave.
And, BEST thing I ever did, btw. After working at video stores and stuff for a few years, a customer got me a gig at a law firm downtown, just doing menial stuff, but then I was able to segue that job into mortgage brokering (it was a foreclosure law firm), and from there got into mortgage banking. I've been a huge success (by my own standards). I work from home (literally, not "for the most part". My office is written off on my taxes and everything). I have an awesome processor to do all my paperwork. Our company has hundreds of millions of dollars which we use to either work with other various lenders like Citi or BofA or to provide the necessary monies ourselves. I pay thousands of dollars per month to have other people provide me with all the necessary leads and business so that I typically only have to put in about 3 hours of (what I would consider) work each week. I'm successful not because I want lots of money but because I will never again be under the thumb of someone else and their dictations.
I only just started looking at film as a way to structure some of my ideas and things have been going pretty well so far -- though I've got TONS to learn.
As others have said, college is ALWAYS the best way to go in our society. But if you literally are UNABLE to do what a college needs you to do, know that you can still create a good life for yourself. My mother also went to college for nursing. She now owns the mst profitable chain of music schools in the south suburbs of chicago. In the end passion, integrity, focus and determination are what breed success -- that and a basic understanding of business and finance. If you're passionate and talented you'll succeed. But never, ever, never expect to live the life of a normal person. Those people went to and were able to succeed within the normal parameters. If you cannot, you will never be a part of that culture. Just fyi.
PS I always find it odd when people go to school because they want to be an actor or writer or painter or filmmaker. When you decide to hone your craft through university or otherwise, that's all you're doing -- honing. You already are an actor or writer, you are just trying to get better at what you already are. It concerns me whenever someone wants to be (fill in various art form here), as I believe they're wanting to be that something not because they exist as they are, but because they're aspiring to some station or lifestyle they associate with being an artist.
I am successful in business so that I don't have to be successful in the arts. I live the life of an artist already so that my only pull towards artistic success stays authentic -- so that I'm not moved artistically by greed or desperation but only in the aspiration to create something unique and that adds some value to the human condition. If money or station ever influences your art, that is when you stop being a leader and are resorted back to the herd.
Off topic. but still relevant IMO
In english 101 we had to write papers on various lit that we read for the class. A little Shakespeare, Inferno -- the typical, but being unable to complete the assignments as assigned, I wrote stories regarding the characters in the readings or created new stories regarding the overall themes, always making sure to include the POINT of the essay assigned.
At first the TA gave me perfect marks and lots of praise. He then (unfortuantely) brought my writings to the attention of a professor (telling him that I should be moved from theatre into their more advanced writing programs), and the professor only told him that I was not allowed to write this sort of thing (these stories) in the place of essays. After that, every assignment I completed (sometimes writing 40 pages or more in the place of 3 page essays), and I got incompletes for every one of them, eventually failing the class.
I was able to take english 121 (as 101 was not a prerquisite), wherein the professor actually created a new kind of answer to the homework given to the class called "The creative option" specifically for me. In the end, though, I was unwilling to do what they asked of me in English 101 which meant I would never receive a degree. I stayed in college as long as I could to get as much experience as I could in theatre and in what writing classes I could attend without 101, but in the end I had to leave.
And, BEST thing I ever did, btw. After working at video stores and stuff for a few years, a customer got me a gig at a law firm downtown, just doing menial stuff, but then I was able to segue that job into mortgage brokering (it was a foreclosure law firm), and from there got into mortgage banking. I've been a huge success (by my own standards). I work from home (literally, not "for the most part". My office is written off on my taxes and everything). I have an awesome processor to do all my paperwork. Our company has hundreds of millions of dollars which we use to either work with other various lenders like Citi or BofA or to provide the necessary monies ourselves. I pay thousands of dollars per month to have other people provide me with all the necessary leads and business so that I typically only have to put in about 3 hours of (what I would consider) work each week. I'm successful not because I want lots of money but because I will never again be under the thumb of someone else and their dictations.
I only just started looking at film as a way to structure some of my ideas and things have been going pretty well so far -- though I've got TONS to learn.
As others have said, college is ALWAYS the best way to go in our society. But if you literally are UNABLE to do what a college needs you to do, know that you can still create a good life for yourself. My mother also went to college for nursing. She now owns the mst profitable chain of music schools in the south suburbs of chicago. In the end passion, integrity, focus and determination are what breed success -- that and a basic understanding of business and finance. If you're passionate and talented you'll succeed. But never, ever, never expect to live the life of a normal person. Those people went to and were able to succeed within the normal parameters. If you cannot, you will never be a part of that culture. Just fyi.
PS I always find it odd when people go to school because they want to be an actor or writer or painter or filmmaker. When you decide to hone your craft through university or otherwise, that's all you're doing -- honing. You already are an actor or writer, you are just trying to get better at what you already are. It concerns me whenever someone wants to be (fill in various art form here), as I believe they're wanting to be that something not because they exist as they are, but because they're aspiring to some station or lifestyle they associate with being an artist.
I am successful in business so that I don't have to be successful in the arts. I live the life of an artist already so that my only pull towards artistic success stays authentic -- so that I'm not moved artistically by greed or desperation but only in the aspiration to create something unique and that adds some value to the human condition. If money or station ever influences your art, that is when you stop being a leader and are resorted back to the herd.
Off topic. but still relevant IMO
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J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Here is an old post on my blog in reference to FILM SCHOOL or NOT.
http://www.cineobscure.com/?p=7
I recently had a discussion with an actress (reviewing her Reel) and apparently her boyfriend, a recent graduate of LA FILM SCHOOL, had shot everything on the REEL.
My first thoughts were not good. I wondered allowed, what'd they teach this guy in film school ?
My opinion is, Film School or Not; one either has the built in Chops or they Don't.
Just like any other art form. Schooling may give you some intermediate skillsets but unless you 'just got it' built in, what will it matter ?
http://www.cineobscure.com/?p=7
I recently had a discussion with an actress (reviewing her Reel) and apparently her boyfriend, a recent graduate of LA FILM SCHOOL, had shot everything on the REEL.
My first thoughts were not good. I wondered allowed, what'd they teach this guy in film school ?
My opinion is, Film School or Not; one either has the built in Chops or they Don't.
Just like any other art form. Schooling may give you some intermediate skillsets but unless you 'just got it' built in, what will it matter ?
diego1235467
Well-known member
^ Good way to put it.
As for Jim's post a few pages back, I have looked at CO Film School, but I'm just not sure about it. They have some great equipment (RED. Need I say more? haha), but as far as I can tell, they're not fully accredited. If I don't like it I need to be able to transfer out to another school.
Anyway, if you can get me in touch with the people you mentioned, I'd love to talk with them!
As of now, I'm hoping to get into Loyola Marymount University in LA, but I'm not sure my GPA and/or test scores are good enough to get in. Another option is to attend CU Boulder for a year or two and then try to transfer out. We'll see what happens.
As for Jim's post a few pages back, I have looked at CO Film School, but I'm just not sure about it. They have some great equipment (RED. Need I say more? haha), but as far as I can tell, they're not fully accredited. If I don't like it I need to be able to transfer out to another school.
Anyway, if you can get me in touch with the people you mentioned, I'd love to talk with them!
As of now, I'm hoping to get into Loyola Marymount University in LA, but I'm not sure my GPA and/or test scores are good enough to get in. Another option is to attend CU Boulder for a year or two and then try to transfer out. We'll see what happens.
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
Really, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse. but why ALWAYS? I went to college. A bunch of times. I'm a bright guy and never got a degree. If I had gotten one it would not have changed my life...not even a little. I have a successful business, a great family, I sit on state-level boards and committees, my skills both as a filmmaker and in other venues are very much in demand, I am living pretty much the life I choose. Without a degree.
No one thing is ever ALWAYS best for EVERYONE.
PM me your e-mail and I will pass it on. The difference between CU Boulder's film school and CFS is marked. CU has an in depth film appreciation program. Very intellectual and will definitely broaden you perspective and experience. CFS is much more hands on. Both are good, it just depends on what you want to learn.
Chamber005
Carbonite Member
Thats my point, though -- if you're unable (e.g. desperately do not wish to) complete college, then college is not for you; college then is for all the people who are able to (want to) complete it. Maybe an obvious statement, but a lot of people force themselves through college because they believe it to be the only way. It's the way for people who want to and can complete it. For everyone else -- don't feel bad or discouraged if it's not for you.
And I didn't say everyone. I said everyone in our society. The way our society is structured is to favor people with degrees. There's nothing wrong with that, and if you want to and can achieve a degree, I would suggest everyone go that route. My circumstance was two fold: 1) I wasn't willing to do what they asked of me, and 2) I wouldn't allow a teacher to influence what I wanted to do. No form of educational system works for me so I have to learn things on my own. For most people, though, the education system in our country works and can help them succeed financially (and sometimes personally).
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College teaches you to grow up, handle people, and get a few skills along the way. But most of the stuff you learn in life comes from real world experience. A professor drawing a 3 point lighting setup on a board means crap. Setting up a 3 point lighting in a studio means crap. Taking a light kit out into real world conditions with backgrounds, fuses, windows, bald people, ugly people, 100 square foot offices? Now you're learning.
I didn't learn much production in my production classes. But I worked for the college athletic program, volunteered for the news organization, produced my own sports show, ran my own production company - all while in college. I was light years ahead of everybody else when I graduated. And it sure is paying off now.
I didn't learn much production in my production classes. But I worked for the college athletic program, volunteered for the news organization, produced my own sports show, ran my own production company - all while in college. I was light years ahead of everybody else when I graduated. And it sure is paying off now.