They never claimed it was "real 24p." That's why they called it "Cineframe24."
I actually used one, and the suckitude was profound.
filmman launches GOLD DIGGERS on KickStarter.com
- Thread starter filmman
- Start date
- Status
They never claimed it was "real 24p." That's why they called it "Cineframe24."
I actually used one, and the suckitude was profound.
Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
I remember there being controversy about this because they straight up lied. This is from their own press release. Or maybe I should say exaggerated, their camera's abilities.
Yes, they mention it's a framemode, but specifically state it actually records at 24p. Canon's 24p is a form of framemode too, but it actually acts as true 24p.
-Nate
Last edited:
Barry_Green
Moderator
That isn't a lie, Nathyn. That's the V1U, not the Z1U. The Z1U was an interlaced-only model that created a goofy "cineframe" mode. The V1U *is* true progressive scan, and IINM it was Sony's first real 24p camcorder (under $40,000).
Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
No I'm talking about the Z1u. I think you posted before my edit, but it implicitly states: "The HVR-Z1U HDV 1080 camcorder can record HDV, DVCAM and DV images at 60i, 50i, 30, 25 or 24 frames per second". This we now know, just isn't true. I believe the 25p may be true 25p, but the 30 and 24p are not. And I think the 25p is only on the PAL versions, but I could be wrong. If this camera does real 25p, then shoot 25p and drop and frame.
-Nate
-Nate
Barry_Green
Moderator
The press release you posted said "V1U". You've now edited it to the "Z1U" press release.
And that Z1U press release is misleading, but it doesn't say "progressive scan" or "24p", so it stops just short of being a baldfaced lie.
And that Z1U press release is misleading, but it doesn't say "progressive scan" or "24p", so it stops just short of being a baldfaced lie.
OK, they did indeed lie about it.
However, I do stand by what I said -- the lack of true progressive modes on the FX1/Z1 wasn't a glaring or surprising omission at the time, however it may seem so to someone awash in progressive/24p options today.
However, I do stand by what I said -- the lack of true progressive modes on the FX1/Z1 wasn't a glaring or surprising omission at the time, however it may seem so to someone awash in progressive/24p options today.
Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
My point was from a business standpoint. If I saw 24p on the rise and how people reacted to it and I saw HDV as the hot new format, my next move would be 24p HDV. By this time framemodes were old news. Sony obviously knew this to be true or they wouldn't have bothered to try to make us believe the camera did 24p. They simply dropped the ball. Canon grabbed it and ran with it.
-Nate
-Nate
Matt Sconce
Veteran
Back to topic...How is this production going Filmman? What is the next step?
filmman sell your sony and buy canon 550D/2ti,its cheap ,you will love it,it will remind you of times with film camera for sure.It has real 24p and 60p for slow motion.
http://vimeo.com/11708800
http://vimeo.com/11708800
Last edited:
Barry_Green
Moderator
Okay, how does this possibly follow? How did "Canon" grab it and run with it? Canon pooched us over with their "24F" mode. Panasonic is the one that grabbed it and ran with it, making 24p standard on their entire product line, long before any other manufacturer.
Canon was last to the plate with 24p, just like they're always last with every innovation. They let others go first, and they come in later. They're just now going solid state in their pro cameras, five years after tapeless first appeared.
filmman
Veteran
What's the difference between Sony Z1U 60i > 24p & Panasonic 24p
What's the difference between Sony Z1U 60i > 24p & Panasonic 24p
The only issue left is whether Sony Z1U's 1080i 60i can be converted to 24p (as in both fields combined to make progressive) and is this as good as the Panasonic or any other camera's true HD 24p from which 24p DVDs can be encoded directly?
What's the difference between Sony Z1U 60i > 24p & Panasonic 24p
The only issue left is whether Sony Z1U's 1080i 60i can be converted to 24p (as in both fields combined to make progressive) and is this as good as the Panasonic or any other camera's true HD 24p from which 24p DVDs can be encoded directly?
No. Not as HD. No conversion from 60i to 24p will be as good as native 24p when you're talking about the same base resolution.
But by the time you get it to DVD, the resolution will be pretty much the same either way, though native 24p footage will still end up giving better results.
In any case, if there is any movement at all in a shot, you can't simply combine separate 60i fields into a frame without some kind of blur. Also, any interlaced footage will have no better than about 77% the vertical resolution of native progressive no matter what. So, you start with less and then throw away even more when you convert.
But by the time you get it to DVD, the resolution will be pretty much the same either way, though native 24p footage will still end up giving better results.
In any case, if there is any movement at all in a shot, you can't simply combine separate 60i fields into a frame without some kind of blur. Also, any interlaced footage will have no better than about 77% the vertical resolution of native progressive no matter what. So, you start with less and then throw away even more when you convert.
filmman
Veteran
I keep arguing that 35mm is simpler to deal with 
I keep arguing that 35mm is simpler to deal with
I keep arguing with them, Matt, that it doesn't matter what format you shoot the movie on, whether it's Super 35mm Panavision, Sony 900F, Arri 21, Sony Z1U, Canon 24p, Panasonic 24, flip camera, iPhone -- the main thing is the story! But they won't listen, Matt. LOL
The next step in my production? Uh, if it wasn't for my car's broken water pump, I would have already shot the thing on a 24 cents budget! Just kidding.
I have zero backers and zero budget on Kickstarter. I wish I had Faith ... Oops! I meant I wish I had Faith Granger working on this one. LOL
But seriously, it's not the camera that is holding me up. When I found Kickstarter and one of its successfully funded projects was a cookie making concept, I thought, "Why am I banging my head on the concrete wall and making movies with pocket money?"
Now, it is the next question that got me into hot water: "If I can raise $25,000 on Kickstarter, why don't I shoot this movie in 35mm." And I uttered it here on DVX user. Uh, what was I thinking of?
But I learned a lot about the Sony Z1U though. In fact I learned more about my camera here on DVX user than from all the other forums I've been on, which is really a testament to the level of knowledge about filmmaking in general on this site.
This is why FILMMAN loves DVX user group :love4: so there, I said it!
The big thing that I found out is that even if I was doing a remake of Gone with the Wind, I needed to contact all my friends and relatives to get them to donate some of the money, because nobody contributes even one dollar before someone starts the ball rolling.
Of course, all the other issues are also true, very true:
1) I don't have a proper trailer (excuse: car's water pump broken, $1,200 to fix it).
2) I can't come up with a great poster (excuse: I've forgotten how to use Photoshop).
3) I don't have "proof of concept" (excuse: didn't know what proof of concept was before I heard it here).
4) I don't have hutzpah (excuse: I don't have Faith
5) I don't have a Christian genre movie (excuse: I thought Christians supported Christian movies).
What will I do now?
1) I'm putting together some money to fix my car's water pump. (another two weeks I figure).
2) I will put up a casting call in the trades.
3) I will shoot the movie on location with my Sony Z1.
4) Put the movie up on my websites on the Internet as PR for my work.
I keep arguing that 35mm is simpler to deal with
I keep arguing with them, Matt, that it doesn't matter what format you shoot the movie on, whether it's Super 35mm Panavision, Sony 900F, Arri 21, Sony Z1U, Canon 24p, Panasonic 24, flip camera, iPhone -- the main thing is the story! But they won't listen, Matt. LOL
The next step in my production? Uh, if it wasn't for my car's broken water pump, I would have already shot the thing on a 24 cents budget! Just kidding.
I have zero backers and zero budget on Kickstarter. I wish I had Faith ... Oops! I meant I wish I had Faith Granger working on this one. LOL
But seriously, it's not the camera that is holding me up. When I found Kickstarter and one of its successfully funded projects was a cookie making concept, I thought, "Why am I banging my head on the concrete wall and making movies with pocket money?"
Now, it is the next question that got me into hot water: "If I can raise $25,000 on Kickstarter, why don't I shoot this movie in 35mm." And I uttered it here on DVX user. Uh, what was I thinking of?
But I learned a lot about the Sony Z1U though. In fact I learned more about my camera here on DVX user than from all the other forums I've been on, which is really a testament to the level of knowledge about filmmaking in general on this site.
This is why FILMMAN loves DVX user group :love4: so there, I said it!
The big thing that I found out is that even if I was doing a remake of Gone with the Wind, I needed to contact all my friends and relatives to get them to donate some of the money, because nobody contributes even one dollar before someone starts the ball rolling.
Of course, all the other issues are also true, very true:
1) I don't have a proper trailer (excuse: car's water pump broken, $1,200 to fix it).
2) I can't come up with a great poster (excuse: I've forgotten how to use Photoshop).
3) I don't have "proof of concept" (excuse: didn't know what proof of concept was before I heard it here).
4) I don't have hutzpah (excuse: I don't have Faith
5) I don't have a Christian genre movie (excuse: I thought Christians supported Christian movies).
What will I do now?
1) I'm putting together some money to fix my car's water pump. (another two weeks I figure).
2) I will put up a casting call in the trades.
3) I will shoot the movie on location with my Sony Z1.
4) Put the movie up on my websites on the Internet as PR for my work.
filmman
Veteran
DSLR to the Rescue!
DSLR to the Rescue!
I checked out the Canon 550D/2ti. I watched the trailer you posted the link for and two other Youtube videos. The images are very impressive. Strangely, they look like stills that move :2vrolijk_08:No, not just like motion picture; they are rock solid and sharp -- unlike film. But this is the new look also -- the "look of DSLR movies" (hey, did I just coin something? :shocked:
And the price is right -- about $900. I can see why filmmakers are starting to use these cameras to make movies with.
But I notice there are a lot of things one must take into consideration: sound recording, moving the camera, lens adapters, and so on.
Thanks for the post.
DSLR to the Rescue!
I checked out the Canon 550D/2ti. I watched the trailer you posted the link for and two other Youtube videos. The images are very impressive. Strangely, they look like stills that move :2vrolijk_08:No, not just like motion picture; they are rock solid and sharp -- unlike film. But this is the new look also -- the "look of DSLR movies" (hey, did I just coin something? :shocked:
And the price is right -- about $900. I can see why filmmakers are starting to use these cameras to make movies with.
But I notice there are a lot of things one must take into consideration: sound recording, moving the camera, lens adapters, and so on.
Thanks for the post.
filmman
Veteran
thanks for explaining the differences between 60i & 24p
thanks for explaining the differences between 60i & 24p
I understand it when I read it, but by tomorrow I'll be still wondering what it all means. But honestly thank you for ferreting all this information out, even though it takes someone a lot more familiar with digital cameras and work flows to understand this fully.
thanks for explaining the differences between 60i & 24p
I understand it when I read it, but by tomorrow I'll be still wondering what it all means. But honestly thank you for ferreting all this information out, even though it takes someone a lot more familiar with digital cameras and work flows to understand this fully.
Brandon Rice
Distributed Producer
Some great posts on here going into detail about the technical side of digital filmmaking. Hopefully it helps you see it's not as mystical as it seems
Cheers!
Cheers!
filmman
Veteran
the Sony HVR Z1U has no 24p
the Sony HVR Z1U has no 24p
In the press release of Nov. 10, 2004, both cameras were mentioned together; it was a little confusing. The V1U had a few different features. It had the CMOS sensor (or something like that -- I'm not good with this technology). So the Z1U was still a better camera because of its 3CCD chips, etc. And the Z1U can also shoot PAL! Which was a big consideration for me, because most of my market is in PAL land.
So if I'm shooting in Europe, I'll shoot 50i and deliver in PAL.
As for shooting here out of Hollywood, I'm going to shoot 1080i 60i on most projects that are aimed at digital releasing. With projects that are strictly for the web, I will test the Cine Frame 30 -- as I've never tested it and why not do it since I own this camera and I should know what it can do.)
Thanks for the help with these issues.
the Sony HVR Z1U has no 24p
In the press release of Nov. 10, 2004, both cameras were mentioned together; it was a little confusing. The V1U had a few different features. It had the CMOS sensor (or something like that -- I'm not good with this technology). So the Z1U was still a better camera because of its 3CCD chips, etc. And the Z1U can also shoot PAL! Which was a big consideration for me, because most of my market is in PAL land.
So if I'm shooting in Europe, I'll shoot 50i and deliver in PAL.
As for shooting here out of Hollywood, I'm going to shoot 1080i 60i on most projects that are aimed at digital releasing. With projects that are strictly for the web, I will test the Cine Frame 30 -- as I've never tested it and why not do it since I own this camera and I should know what it can do.)
Thanks for the help with these issues.
Honestly -- and I'm not going to get into any arguments about which one -- if you're intending to do numerous projects with 24p in mind, get a different camera. If it's just to get you through one, then fine, but long term, you'll want something else, something native 24p. There's really no substitute. Bite the bullet, cry once, and live better thereafter.
filmman
Veteran
I don't like being left in the dark by a manufacturer
I don't like being left in the dark by a manufacturer
I'm like you, Nate. I don't like to be misled. And I hate being cheated. But I didn't know about digital cameras that much. In fact I was researching digital cameras when I was contacted by a producer who wanted me to shoot an educational documentary.
And before I could decide which camera to buy, the producer asked me if I'd heard about the Sony Z1U. I said, I was looking at it... He said, "That's the one I want you to shoot the movie with? Can we rent it?" I said, "Ok."
So, I bought it instead of renting it (this is not a good philosophy with digital cameras -- by the time one has read the manual the camera is obsolete.) Anyway, you might say I got it for nothing, because I factored it into my cost of production.
I shot a 55 minute movie with it and edited on the FCP 5.0 for the first time. I had shot with the Canon Optura before and edited in FCP 4.5 for a few months, so I didn't know that much about digital. This was in 2004-5 I guess.
I took the Z1 out of the box the same day I was to shoot. I put it on the tripod and rolled off the first take. I played it back. It looked ok, so I said, "Camera ready!" and shot the whole project in two days.
That's the problem with digital sometimes; I'm used to shooting 35mm -- I'm a shooter :kali:
I don't like being left in the dark by a manufacturer
I'm like you, Nate. I don't like to be misled. And I hate being cheated. But I didn't know about digital cameras that much. In fact I was researching digital cameras when I was contacted by a producer who wanted me to shoot an educational documentary.
And before I could decide which camera to buy, the producer asked me if I'd heard about the Sony Z1U. I said, I was looking at it... He said, "That's the one I want you to shoot the movie with? Can we rent it?" I said, "Ok."
So, I bought it instead of renting it (this is not a good philosophy with digital cameras -- by the time one has read the manual the camera is obsolete.) Anyway, you might say I got it for nothing, because I factored it into my cost of production.
I shot a 55 minute movie with it and edited on the FCP 5.0 for the first time. I had shot with the Canon Optura before and edited in FCP 4.5 for a few months, so I didn't know that much about digital. This was in 2004-5 I guess.
I took the Z1 out of the box the same day I was to shoot. I put it on the tripod and rolled off the first take. I played it back. It looked ok, so I said, "Camera ready!" and shot the whole project in two days.
That's the problem with digital sometimes; I'm used to shooting 35mm -- I'm a shooter :kali:
- Status