filmman launches GOLD DIGGERS on KickStarter.com

[filmman]

putting the cart before the horse

putting the cart before the horse

Well, I don't know that was entirely his point. I think he was stressing more about HAVING a good story to shoot in the first place BEFORE worrying about Tech stuff.

Shooting A story well is nice, but what if it's not a compelling story?

There's really not much that a forum can do, short of an online workshop a la Zoetrope and others (and those are less effective in practice than they sound on paper). People are going to be passionate about their stories when they shouldn't at times and not confident enough (rarer) than they should be at times.

I think he was pointing to a lot of homework to be done BEFORE any of the great technology that this forum is adept at discussing even becomes relevant.

-M

There is also those of us who are technically oriented and that's just part of the filmmaking culture we grew up with -- and some of us are film school graduates :laugh:

I don't like too much tech talk myself, but a certain amount of it can produce the synergy to get a movie made. I think a lot of what Adam achieved with CORRADO had to do with his obsession with owning his own production and post production equipment and the knowledge he developed to shoot the movie his own way. This infected others, including experienced actors like Tom Sizemore, who worked with Spielberg on Saving Private Ryan (a movie that carried technical innovations).

So everybody cheered Adam along, because we were all learning from him in his technical approach. And, yes, the other stuff about casting, agents, and now the distribution aspect -- all these were even greater for those of us who were alright with the technical stuff; but none of us can ever learn enough about the business aspects -- people keep those secret much more so than technical stuff.

Well, I just wanted to add that; everything else is also true.

 

[filmman]

Nathyn wrote: I think Vic falls in the hardcore artist category but gets caught up in the tech aspects because what he wants to do cost too much, and at the same time he loves film. His love of film (the tech or aesthetic aspect) gets in the way of him telling the story.

As an example I really wanted to shoot on the Canon Xh-A1 or the JVC HM100. The closest I could get was the Canon HG10. It works, the image is great and it does what I need it to do, so it's on. I have an adapter for deep focus scenes and now I've decided to shoot another story because "Divinity" got too big. But I'm telling the same overall story only in a different way. (And this film is actually, is positioned to sale on story and genre versus cast).

-Nate

To some extent that's true, but I'm aware of it. I fret too much about technique... but then you do too. However, what I like about your approach is that you're able to scale down the technology to fit your budget. You have an uncanny way of researching and picking the right type of technology. You don't let things get out of hand...

Except with abandoning DIVINITY! You fell pray to the same problems. You developed the project beyond your technical and financial grasp.

You decided on doing Financial Core (bad idea in the long run, because distributors will have to pay residuals, etc.) That meant you had to pay more money for actors regardless, so now you couldn't justify using low end cameras and then ... suddenly the budget went up beyond your comfort zone.

You're very practical, so you said, no, I will do another project for now. So right now you're thinking of new strategies of raising money -- making bigger projects later, etc.

So I'm learning from you too. You want to make more than $25,000.

For you, also, the choice of camera is not the issue. It's the four element that Adam pointed out -- just like for me: cast, premise & logline, script, and artwork.

You have the last three, but you don't have a cast -- a cast that you can show a distributor and get the distribution guarantee or contract. So you need a name actor or actress.

You're ahead of me in the game, at this point. THE WOMAN AT THE WELL isn't even half way there -- none of the four elements!

 

[Nathyn]

But one thing about this Vic, you're going to run into the same things over and over, just like with the Red Queen. Once the movie is made, how do you market it. If I had $100,000 to make a film and market it, $40,000 goes to the film $60,000 goes to marketing. If I'm going to hit the film markets I would spend $60,000 on the film and $40,000 for travel, making up flyers, posters and all that I needed to market and I could still get names, good equipment, TV quality special effects at a minimum (think Mutant X television show) and many other things and I could almost be assured a profit with an Action/Sci-Fi film.

But do the same film on $5000 or less with no names and even with decent effects the question becomes "How do I market it without the money." The first thing you need Vic is the art work. In your case I wouldn't even worry about this until the film is cast. But you have to have a photo day. A day when you simply put your actors against a well lit green screen, photograph them, knock the background out in Photoshop and arrange them in certain ways. I talk about this in my Action Filmmaking book, some distributors ask for this. When you send them artwork they want unflattened tiffs so they're art department can go in and fix things. The less work for them, the better. If you send them the 300dpi photos from photo-day they can knock the backgrounds out and use the images themselves. The rest will be clip art.

I suggest you do a photo day as soon as you get your cast together and get them in their costumes and give all the photos to a graphic artist and let them make your covers and posters. Get someone from Craigslist or even here. I'm sure they wouldn't charge as much as the big design companies, probably $100 or less. But do not use stills from the camera, it's just not quality.

Another thing you cannot post anymore low quality art. Look at the posters in the business/post sections. No one posting low quality work. It's all professional. Zak's stuff, my stuff, Rubbersquare's stuff it's all tight and that Paulus cat's stuff is ridiculously hot. Dude has a poster with a dog fight and all kind of crazy stuff happening over there. Check the link: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=103692 basically handle the film, let someone else handle the marketing. You'll get better results. But before all of it, you have to have an idea of what you want to do. I still think even "The Red Queen" could have better art because the film actually looks interesting. If you can get Liv back in that outfit, find some of the actors and take some greenscreen shots of the main three to five people at least it would be worth it. You can use stills for the back. Also start taking photos during the shoots so you can have stills of the scenes to use on the box. This will help immensely. If you can find the Donnie Hoyle "You Suck at Photoshop" tutorials they're totally funny and informative (and it's actually a narrative story). But I'd just hire someone to do the art. And yes, I do my own art but keep in mind I teach graphic design and have been doing Photoshop for ten years. And even I sometimes end up doing tons of designs until one is so hot I have to use it. And I know that when everyone goes "Damn, dude that tight as hell!". On the flipside many aren't so blessed and simple give someone a few bucks to do the work. And again, before any of that even comes into play it starts with a good story and tight script, because even the art is representative of the story.

Except with abandoning DIVINITY! You fell pray to the same problems. You developed the project beyond your technical and financial grasp.

You decided on doing Financial Core (bad idea in the long run, because distributors will have to pay residuals, etc.) That meant you had to pay more money for actors regardless, so now you couldn't justify using low end cameras and then ... suddenly the budget went up beyond your comfort zone.

I just decided it wasn't really what I wanted to do and the spirit for the film was lackluster. Not to mention I was even losing my semi-name local actors too. So I decided to do the thing I wanted to do and maybe revisit Divinity later. Over the years I've had to learn to tell the same story in many different ways. So I'm actually telling the same story, with a lot of the same message this time as and action horror film. Replace evil Vatican agents/assassins with supernatural creatures. And the SAG Core issue isn't really a problem at all. The actors make a deal with you, you don't make any deals with SAG. SAG Core actors only fall under SAG rules when in SAG films as far as I understand and if distributors do have to pay royalties, well they're the one who want the names.

-Nate

 

[lambert]

"SAG Core actors only fall under SAG rules when in SAG films as far as I understand and if distributors do have to pay royalties, well they're the one who want the names." That's my understanding also.

 

[lambert]

"SAG Core actors only fall under SAG rules when in SAG films." I don't believe they would ever have to pay anything else unless stated in the initial contract.

 

[Nathyn]

But what ended up happening was I had to spend money on other things so I never had to money to get the two actors I wanted. Plus my local actresses dropped out and they were up and coming names in the horror genre so I was dead in the water as far as that concerned. So my next option was to shoot without names and work on genre, but I may actually be able to get my local actresses back if I shoot their stuff toward the end of summer.

-Nate

 

[Brandon Rice]

Vic, is this a short film you're trying to shoot here? All 35mm/Digital argument aside, just trying to get this thread back on track...

 

[filmman]

The woman at the well

The woman at the well

Vic, is this a short film you're trying to shoot here? All 35mm/Digital argument aside, just trying to get this thread back on track...

I thought of shooting the scene with Jesus sitting by the well and the Samaritan woman coming to fetch the water. It's a rather long scene and so I would allow the drama to play itself out. I'm sure you know the scene; it's pretty nice and could make a good movie all by itself. So, depending on how things went, I would decide whether to make it into a 30 minute or 60 minute feature.

Of course, there is the scene with the disciples returning and finding Jesus speaking to the woman. And then the scene with the Samaritan village people. He stays with them two days. I think the whole story could end up becoming a 75 to 83 minute feature.

As a no-budget movie, THE WOMAN AT THE WELL would have a no-name cast. As a $25,000 budget movie, I would consider doing it on a bigger scale; but I'm not holding my breath for Kickstarter funders to come through for me. I think the Kickstarter crowd is somewhat of a clique -- I don't mean that in a bad way; but I don't think they would fund a story straight from the Scriptures. I could be wrong.

I've experimented with different approaches to see which way to go with the story; but since I don't have a strong trailer, synopsis and artwork, it's hard to tell what they would fund.

I hope to do a trailer or proof of concept before the funding period ends. The advice I've received in this thread has been outstanding. If nothing else, I've learned how to approach my next kickstarter project.

THE WOMAN AT THE WELL will remain on my plate. I will certainly pray for the Lord's help to get me through.

 

[filmman]

Nate:

I will definitely shoot digital stills next time I'm out there making a movie. I couldn't do it with THE RED QUEEN because the footage just sat there for almost a year before I figured I had a feature film in all that footage.

I always liked your idea of renting the Red Queen costume and doing some new stills with it. The other actors are gone -- like in GONE! LOL

Despite everything, THE RED QUEEN is in some ways my best movie. I really love it and find myself watching it over and over again. I think I've seen it at least 30 times since I finished it.

I have a feeling that someday I'll screen it to audiences and do Q&A sessions. I really would love to discuss it with an audience after they've seen it.

 

[Brandon Rice]

I thought of shooting the scene with Jesus sitting by the well and the Samaritan woman coming to fetch the water. It's a rather long scene and so I would allow the drama to play itself out. I'm sure you know the scene; it's pretty nice and could make a good movie all by itself. So, depending on how things went, I would decide whether to make it into a 30 minute or 60 minute feature.

Of course, there is the scene with the disciples returning and finding Jesus speaking to the woman. And then the scene with the Samaritan village people. He stays with them two days. I think the whole story could end up becoming a 75 to 83 minute feature.

As a no-budget movie, THE WOMAN AT THE WELL would have a no-name cast. As a $25,000 budget movie, I would consider doing it on a bigger scale; but I'm not holding my breath for Kickstarter funders to come through for me. I think the Kickstarter crowd is somewhat of a clique -- I don't mean that in a bad way; but I don't think they would fund a story straight from the Scriptures. I could be wrong.

I've experimented with different approaches to see which way to go with the story; but since I don't have a strong trailer, synopsis and artwork, it's hard to tell what they would fund.

I hope to do a trailer or proof of concept before the funding period ends. The advice I've received in this thread has been outstanding. If nothing else, I've learned how to approach my next kickstarter project.

THE WOMAN AT THE WELL will remain on my plate. I will certainly pray for the Lord's help to get me through.

My advice.

I think you should work on a 10 page or under script for that specific scene. An audience won't sit through a 30 minute scene, no matter how good of actors you have.

So, I'll bullet point this out for you.

- Write a script (10 pages or under, and if you can only 2 characters as you mentioned)

- Find a location (this is going to be tough, not sure how you can fake a well) A "high-desert" location is actually easy to find, and shoot on, but the well is another story.

- Hook up with your local church, or a friend's church for props/costumes, etc. (maybe even ask your pastor to read through your script and see if they would help fund some of your film)

- Put out a casting call on DVXuser, Craigslist, etc. (there are several other casting websites such as Breakdown Services, Backstage West that you can also try)

- Rent a High Definition 24p Digital camera, or find a DP who owns a camera.

I am confident you can pull off a very nice short film for very low cost. My last film, I made on a $300 budget, and it had similar budget issues, aside from the period clothing.

Let me know if you have any questions on these points.

 

[Nathyn]

Brandon's got some good ideas.

-Nate

 

[filmman]

Great advice

Great advice

My advice.

I think you should work on a 10 page or under script for that specific scene. An audience won't sit through a 30 minute scene, no matter how good of actors you have.

So, I'll bullet point this out for you.

- Write a script (10 pages or under, and if you can only 2 characters as you mentioned)

- Find a location (this is going to be tough, not sure how you can fake a well) A "high-desert" location is actually easy to find, and shoot on, but the well is another story.

- Hook up with your local church, or a friend's church for props/costumes, etc. (maybe even ask your pastor to read through your script and see if they would help fund some of your film)

- Put out a casting call on DVXuser, Craigslist, etc. (there are several other casting websites such as Breakdown Services, Backstage West that you can also try)

- Rent a High Definition 24p Digital camera, or find a DP who owns a camera.

I am confident you can pull off a very nice short film for very low cost. My last film, I made on a $300 budget, and it had similar budget issues, aside from the period clothing.

Let me know if you have any questions on these points.

Thanks Brandon,

I'm copying the steps you outlined in my note book. I'm going to see if I can follow this work flow. I don't work this way, you know, but it's sometimes good to follow someone's else's work flow, especially when they have been successful doing it, and you are a successful filmmaker -- you really are; I recognize that.

Also, what leads me to think this might work for me is the fact that you pulled this off spectacularly with your movie NO GREATER LOVE.

 

[Brandon Rice]

Actually, I did things quite differently for NGL, as it was a higher budget with a longer script, etc. But this is what I've done for any short film I've ever made.

 

[filmman]

higher budget is all relative

higher budget is all relative

Actually, I did things quite differently for NGL, as it was a higher budget with a longer script, etc. But this is what I've done for any short film I've ever made.

What was that process like? Do you care to outline the steps?

I like Adam's steps too; and CORRADO started with just an idea also. He started with agents and name actors, then got distribution to show interest and he followed through on the basis of how big a budget movie he could make. His success is spectacular.

But Adam had money and the investors lined up before he even decided what movie to shoot.

I know that NGL started out differently, because you didn't go after agents and name actors at all. So it would be interesting to hear the basic steps you took to make NGL the successful film that it is.

 

[Shawn Philip Nelson]

I see this kind of insanity on REDUser all the time - people plugging their new red primes, dying for a Mysterium X upgrade, waiting for Jannard's latest dispatch, talking about how Epic will blow Red One out of the water....

Curiously absent is all the talk of how to obtain and retain an agent. How to write a killer logline. How to attend a film market and make a presale. How to develop a relationship with a studio - all this needs to be in order before you start fretting over tech!

Hey Adam, I searched on this site to see if you were posting and found this.

I agree with the spirit of your post, but in fairness, Reduser by definition is the place to talk about Red tech, not all that other stuff that should come first. So yeah, I expect to only read about everything you mentioned about Reduser.

So for the other stuff, can you recommend me a good forum where professional and/or helpful people discuss "how to obtain and retain an agent. How to write a killer logline. How to attend a film market and make a presale. How to develop a relationship with a studio"?

 

[Brandon Rice]

Why don't we make that THIS forum Shawn?

 

[Kegan]

Likely because all we talk about here is tech too? Take a look at the "User Films" section - nobody cares to even look at that, but they'll bicker all day about DSLRs, their relevance, about how to do this or that.

Its a shame really, but I doubt this will ever be more than a tech forum. Care to prove me wrong? Please do.

Kegan

 

[Brandon Rice]

Changes are in the works

 

[filmman]

tech starts the tick tock

tech starts the tick tock

Likely because all we talk about here is tech too? Take a look at the "User Films" section - nobody cares to even look at that, but they'll bicker all day about DSLRs, their relevance, about how to do this or that.

Its a shame really, but I doubt this will ever be more than a tech forum. Care to prove me wrong? Please do.

Kegan

You're wrong, Kegan -- but not completely :laugh:

I started this thread to trace the progress of my new movie THE WOMAN AT THE WELL. Kickstarter is a window of opportunity to raise funds legally to do creative projects. As everybody knows that the minute somebody asks for "investors", all hell break loose -- the SEC, the FBI, the CIA, all get involved -- well, I'm exaggerating a little :laugh:

But the audiences that find a project interesting may decide to "fund" a movie for the pleasure of being ... well, funders :zombie_smiley:

So, it's ok to offer them a free DVD, a T-Shirt, a title such as Executive Producer ... and what ever creative gift you may give them for being such a nice audience -- just don't offer them a "return on investment". Asking for investors as to "investing in movies" is a crime in America! Imagine that! (You have to first file with the SEC -- then it's ok :2vrolijk_08

But asking for nice people to fund you without expectations of anything, that's okay. It's like they are pre-buying tickets to the show or something -- so far this is legal, so here we go...

And now we have another way of raising money to make movies. Adam's way with CORRADO is the traditional way, believe it or not, and few people get to go that route these days (unless they are billionaires), because the agents have bogied the joint with that style of financing.

Only Adam was able to break through the BS and he did it online without anybody catching on -- it was nothing short of miraculous. Adam really defied the odds. I was amazed as he laid it all out in the open in the famous CORRADO thread. I thought to myself, "how are the agents going to let him use these actors without the money being in escrow, without pay or pay contracts, without deposits?" But they let Adam do it and he ended up making a movie that was picked up.

The other way of raising money has worked for NO GREATER LOVE. This is: write an excellent script, make a genre movie, excellent photography, editing, and voila! success! A mini-major picks up the movie.

Now we have a third way: Kickstarter! So far it's been a kick in the pants; but I'm always slow on the uptake -- slow learner rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

You want to talk agents, actors, investors, distribution, studios? Start a thread that traces your journey doing any or all of that. Spend an hour or two a day and educate us.

Or read this thread Thanks for visiting.

 

[filmman]

How to make a blockbuster movie without trying

How to make a blockbuster movie without trying

Hey Adam, I searched on this site to see if you were posting and found this.

I agree with the spirit of your post, but in fairness, Reduser by definition is the place to talk about Red tech, not all that other stuff that should come first. So yeah, I expect to only read about everything you mentioned about Reduser.

So for the other stuff, can you recommend me a good forum where professional and/or helpful people discuss "how to obtain and retain an agent. How to write a killer logline. How to attend a film market and make a presale. How to develop a relationship with a studio"?

I was going to ask him that myself, Shawn, but I was too embarrassed :lipsrseal You're supposed to find that out yourself.

But, seriously, the interesting thing is that Adam advised me to begin with "Cast" first. See, that takes genius. Why? Because, before you decide on a premise for your story and come up with a logline (step 2), you must have a name actor in mind.

The name actor (that distributors will consider bankable) will decide what story you're going to tell.

So, take a wild case scenario: in my movie THE WOMAN AT THE WELL, if I could get Angelina Jolie to play the Samaritan Woman, step number 2 would follow automatically.

In fact, step 2, 3, 4, & 5 would follow too. The movie would be automatically financed and shot -- only I would be out of the picture from the get go, except for "Associate Producer" credit and a buy-out of the project.

Depends on who you get for a cast. Now, there are many case scenarios, and each one will be different. So it all depends on step one.