Filmmaker wanting to improve audio skills.

Lintel

Lintel

Active member
Hi all.

I've spent the last year or so teaching myself how to shoot video (on cheap DSLR's) focusing largely on the visual side of things. I've hit a bit of a plateau with that stuff and feel it's time to dedicate some serious time to the audio half of the equation. I have a decent understanding of the rudimentary principles of audio capture, but beyond that I'm fairly clueless (i.e. deaf). My plan is to try making a few short audio-only mini-docs and/or experimental sound-pieces to get myself fully immersed in the audio and stop myself thinking of it as a 'bolt-on' to the image.

I have the following kit, which I'd rather not add to unless I really, really would benefit from it (i.e. I'm skint). Please forgive me if I don't use the right terminology:

  • [*=1]Roland R26 recorder (6 channel: 2 internal stereo mics, 2 XLR, 1 stereo 3.5mm) with furry windshield. I have no idea how good the onboard mice are.
    [*=1]Sony 7506 monitor headphones
    [*=1]Rode NTG-2 shotgun with Rycote half-blimp thingy + fury windshield + shockmount.
    [*=1]Senheisser MKE400 (mini dslr shotgun)
    [*=1]Rode lav with XLR and 3.5mm micon adapters
    [*=1]Sony ICD-SX1000 dictation recorder, which I use for a wired-lav setup. I run a long cable if I want to monitor sound. (it seems good but doesn't record 48kHz - it records 44.1kHz 16bit or 96kHz 24bit LPCM. I've never known if this causes a problem when synching with scratch video audio. I haven't noticed one).
I edit video in FCPX and would really like to do all of my sound work in there too if possible.

What I'd like to know is where to start and where to hang out: what are the best resources for learning and sharing (gear, post, creative stuff)? Websites? Forums? People? Books? Etc ...

Please could we stay away from comments like "you just have to go out there and do it" and "no one can teach you sound". I'm looking for information, support, ideas and encouragement.

Huge thanks.
 
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One good starting place may be the yellow stickies in this forum. There's a plethora of good information there.

Read up, then go out and practice. When you hit a specific stumbling block, come back and ask! Really, "the basics" are far too broad to encapsulate in one post, but many of them are covered in the stickies with topics including gear, production sound, and post-production sound.

I will say this about your current sound kit: it looks to be lacking a reliable pair of headphones (such as the Sony MDR-7506) and a boom pole. What about XLR cables for connecting the NTG-2 to the Roland? Also, the dictation recorder is not the most useful thing you have. Considering you have the R26, you should rely on that first and foremost. 44.1kHz isn't the best idea since audo for video runs at a native 48kHz, and 96kHz is overkill.

Also, the built-in mics on the R26 can be useful for recording ambient sound beds, but not so much for dialog. The NTG-2 will be your better bet for that.
 
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Alex H. said:
One good starting place may be the yellow stickies in this forum. There's a plethora of good information there.

Read up, then go out and practice. When you hit a specific stumbling block, come back and ask!

I will say this about your current sound kit: it looks to be lacking a reliable pair of headphones (such as the Sony MDR-7506) and a boom pole. What about XLR cables for connecting the NTG-2 to the Roland? Also, the dictation recorder is not the most useful thing you have.
Click to expand...

Thanks Alex, brilliant. I'll scour through the stickies.

I forgot to add my headphones - I actually have the Sony 7506's! Added to the list now.

And yes I have a few Yongsheng XLR cables of different lengths.

The Sony mini recorder is actually very useful as a compromise when the R26 is too large (or I don't have it). And it's superb as a wired lav recorder for dropping in the subject's pocket: it's tiny, easy to use, good quality and auto-levels has served me pretty well so far for non-critical stuff. I'm actually getting better results with the lav+Sony than I am with the R26+lav for some reason. As I said I haven't found synching with 48kHz video scratch audio a problem when recording at 44.1kHz, but I am a bit deaf ...
 
"I haven't found synching with 48kHz video scratch audio a problem when recording at 44.1kHz"
- Quality-wise, there's nothing really wrong with 44.1kHz., but as Alex stated 48k is the standard for video. -- OTOH, some NLEs (like Sony Vegas for instance) support different sample rates... even on the same track , but are converted to 48k upon render. Most other NLE's require all audio files to be 48k or the pitch/speed would be different, among other problems.
 
Yeah I would just keep being involved in this forum. There are some really helpful and instructive members (like Rick and Alex) who will guide you along when you hit a bump... I also started with a NTG-2 and used it for many years with success, but if you can scrape a few bucks up for an NTG-3 you will be surprised at the difference (along with a relatively inexpensive recorder like the Tascam DR-680).
 
Not sure what your business and audio goals are other than a desire to improve, but here are a few suggestions:

Practice specific things such as interviews, outdoors with wind, booming etc. These and many other audio situations require specific skills to become competent.

One of the milestones for me was when I began to mix. You didn't list a mixer in your kit and it is one of the foundations of better recording. A good mixer will improve your recorder by eliminating the preamps on inexpensive recorders and offering you cleaner audio and more gain. Some here have said that inexpensive recorders don't totally bypass their preamps, but it will still make a huge difference even if the preamps are minimized. In most cases, this will greatly improve the performance of economy microphones that often have lower output such as the NTG2. Think Sound Designs brand for small mixers such as the MixPre or 302.

I didn't see a small condenser type mic on your list. SC mics are pretty important for interior dialogue.

Although a lot of work can be done with a NTG2, more expensive shotguns such as the NTG3, will bring instant improvement to your audio. In this case, throwing money at the solution will make a difference.

Grant
 
Rick R said:
"I haven't found synching with 48kHz video scratch audio a problem when recording at 44.1kHz"
- Quality-wise, there's nothing really wrong with 44.1kHz., but as Alex stated 48k is the standard for video. -- OTOH, some NLEs (like Sony Vegas for instance) support different sample rates... even on the same track , but are converted to 48k upon render. Most other NLE's require all audio files to be 48k or the pitch/speed would be different, among other problems.
Click to expand...

Thanks Rick. It's been a while since I actually synched something from this recorder. I've now remembered that I was converting the 44.1k audio to 48k before import to FCPX. I don't know if this degrades quality, or if there is a "pulldown" procedure I need to follow.

I also don't know if audio sample rates can be clip independent within a FCPX timeline. For video, framerate has to be fixed from the start, but FCPX's timelines accept any framerate clip and allow you to choose how it is converted ("pulldown" or "conformed" in my terminology). I should probably take these questions to a FCPX specific thread! :)
 
scorsesefan said:
Yeah I would just keep being involved in this forum. There are some really helpful and instructive members (like Rick and Alex) who will guide you along when you hit a bump... I also started with a NTG-2 and used it for many years with success, but if you can scrape a few bucks up for an NTG-3 you will be surprised at the difference (along with a relatively inexpensive recorder like the Tascam DR-680).
Click to expand...

Thanks :) Yeah I'm aware of the limitations of the NTG-2, but the battery option trumps quality for what I need right now. I'm not experienced or knowledgeable enough to have 'outgrown' the quality of the NTG-2 in terms of learning yet either. I'm a firm believer in the idea that you learn as much from understanding the limitations of cheap kit as you do from appreciating the quality of good kit. Possibly even more ...
 
ggrantly said:
Not sure what your business and audio goals are other than a desire to improve, but here are a few suggestions:

Practice specific things such as interviews, outdoors with wind, booming etc. These and many other audio situations require specific skills to become competent.

One of the milestones for me was when I began to mix. You didn't list a mixer in your kit and it is one of the foundations of better recording. A good mixer will improve your recorder by eliminating the preamps on inexpensive recorders and offering you cleaner audio and more gain. Some here have said that inexpensive recorders don't totally bypass their preamps, but it will still make a huge difference even if the preamps are minimized. In most cases, this will greatly improve the performance of economy microphones that often have lower output such as the NTG2. Think Sound Designs brand for small mixers such as the MixPre or 302.

I didn't see a small condenser type mic on your list. SC mics are pretty important for interior dialogue.

Although a lot of work can be done with a NTG2, more expensive shotguns such as the NTG3, will bring instant improvement to your audio. In this case, throwing money at the solution will make a difference.

Grant
Click to expand...

Thanks Grant :) I just want to get immersed in sound - creatively, technically and intellectually. I'm a very visual person (10 years in art school!) and not a very aural person (no musical talents). I also think that putting the visual to one side for a while can help me to focus more on the 'content' side of my filmmaking. My goals right now are just to produce a few engaging and technically competent audio pieces, perhaps along the lines of this little film I made earlier this year:


I'm looking for tips on where I can start hanging out online to build on the intellectual/technical understanding side of things, and become more familiar with the audio 'culture'. I will be going out and doing lots of practical experiments and referring back to forums about specifics.

As I hope I made clear, I'm not wanting to add to my kit. Like I said to the user above I believe very strongly you can learn as much from "bad" kit as you can from good kit. Perhaps more. Because I'm a one-man-band, I'd rather not add a mixer to my workflow - for now at least. I work with cheap cameras and am happy to remain low budget as long as technical quality is OK. I'm also very reluctant to get too fixated on gear as I have gone down that road with cameras, to the detriment of all the other aspects of filmmaking (i.e. actually making interesting content). To give some idea of the sort of level I'm working to, this is a test version of a promo reel I made very recently for the videography business I am starting to set up (all shot with sub-$700 cameras). Audio is woeful:


Yes a small condenser for interior stuff is probably the one thing I could do with adding to my kit. But between the shotgun, the lav and the R26 onboard stereo mics, I'm hoping I can get by without. I've always been a bit confused by the do's/don'ts of using a shotgun indoors. I read everywhere that you shouldn't, but then people seem to do it all the time and get good results. If you're thoughtful about the space you're in, can't you usually make it work? I'm confused ...
 
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Lintel said:
I was converting the 44.1k audio to 48k before import to FCPX. I don't know if this degrades quality, or if there is a "pulldown" procedure I need to follow.
Click to expand...
Re-sampling from 44.1 to 48k should not degrade the quality enough to be audible, 'pulldown' is not necessary.
 
Well, there is the JWSSOUNDGROUP where sound pros hang out - very friendly and approachable:

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php

Again, obviously these are working pros, so the gear and conversation is at that level. But it doesn't hurt to lurk and read through the boards, work up your knowledge base, and nobody is going to be unfriendly if you have some noob questions - you may also get more advice as to where to look for sound education resources. There are several boards there, broken by platform, topic and so on. Well worth exploring, IMHO. The board here (dvxuser) is more geared to the generalist, but you can combine various resources if you are motivated. The great thing about the internet and the times we are living in, is that knowledge is way more accessible to anyone across the globe, all you need is the desire to learn.
 
Books are a good source for signal flow and other basic technical info. For instance, The Microphone Handbook and The Recording Studio Handbook. Neither is a 'cook book' but loaded with useful knowledge an audio person should know. Ty Ford's 'Audio Bootcamp Field Guide' is also worthwhile source for newbs as is Jay Rose's 'Producing Great Sound for Film and Video. The actual nut's and bolts of field production is experience. Soldering skills for making custom cables is also a must have skill IMO.
 
OldCorpse said:
Well, there is the JWSSOUNDGROUP where sound pros hang out - very friendly and approachable:

http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php

Again, obviously these are working pros, so the gear and conversation is at that level. But it doesn't hurt to lurk and read through the boards, work up your knowledge base, and nobody is going to be unfriendly if you have some noob questions - you may also get more advice as to where to look for sound education resources. There are several boards there, broken by platform, topic and so on. Well worth exploring, IMHO. The board here (dvxuser) is more geared to the generalist, but you can combine various resources if you are motivated. The great thing about the internet and the times we are living in, is that knowledge is way more accessible to anyone across the globe, all you need is the desire to learn.
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This looks interesting. I think it might all go over my head atm, but as you suggest I'll lurk a bit and see how useful it is. Thanks :)
 
Rick R said:
Books are a good source for signal flow and other basic technical info. For instance, The Microphone Handbook and The Recording Studio Handbook. Neither is a 'cook book' but loaded with useful knowledge an audio person should know. Ty Ford's 'Audio Bootcamp Field Guide' is also worthwhile source for newbs as is Jay Rose's 'Producing Great Sound for Film and Video. The actual nut's and bolts of field production is experience. Soldering skills for making custom cables is also a must have skill IMO.
Click to expand...

Thanks again Rick. I haven't come across the first three books you mentioned - Ty Ford's book definitely seems worth a look. I have the Jay Rose book (the only sound book I have). I read the first half (on capture) about a year ago, and that gave me the fundamentals I've used very inattentively with my filmmaking so far. I still need to read the 'post' section.

Me + soldering = hospital. Maybe when I'm a bit older (do they even sell soldering irons to 34yr-olds?). :)
 
I have the Jay Rose book, and it's good obviously. However, I personally liked this one:

The Location Sound Bible: How to Record Professional Dialog for Film and TV

Generally speaking, what I hate about instruction books is how slooooow people are to get to the point. It's like the observation about youtube videos - always skip the first 20 seconds. So it is with these kinds of books - the first few chapters are aimless, a lot of hot air that communicates nothing. With really bad cases, it never lets up - every piece of useful information is wrapped up in a cotton-candy ball of fluff that takes forever to get to the relevant morsel inside. I don't know what it is - bad editing, or they feel like a lot of text gives people the sense that they got their money's worth, or just lack of ability to concisely convey information, but it's like you need a couple of extra lifetimes just to get through all the nonsense. Seriously, time is precious, I wish people respected it and didn't feel like wasting other's time in these books. OK, rant over. But my point is, that the book above is mercifully short on fluff (there is still some, I mean, I don't really need to read a page about which frequencies dogs, cats, rats etc. hear - I'm just gonna record for people as my audience, thanks).
 
OldCorpse said:
I mean, I don't really need to read a page about which frequencies dogs, cats, rats etc. hear - I'm just gonna record for people as my audience, thanks).
Click to expand...

Thanks. That made me laugh some orange juice up my nose.

I'll check out the book. Cheers ...
 
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