Film Start UP

I didn't like the lettering. Seemed, for lack of a better word, weak. It was sort of too thin/less bodied. Also, the second background image was less visual appealing then the first and it stayed on longer (or at least seamed that way).

I liked what you were going for but something was missing.
 
you are correct the second background did stay on a little longer. We will be changning that while we add more credits.

I also do agree. Something is missing, but i dont no what.

Thanks,
 
I would definately say experiment with the lettering cause it just looks like a powerpoint presentation or something. If you get the time maybe try a third background just to break it up a bit.
 
Horrible. The music sucked, it told me nothing about the film (supposedly "fast action Japanese styled movie"), it conveyed nothing of "fast" or "action" - nor "Japanese style" for that matter, nor was it a contrast type situation where dreamy music plays against violent imagery (cause the abstract imagery also sucked), and conveyed no mood beyond a bored feeling of "oh, more college aged amateur wankers". Moving onto font choice - those fonts may work on a large screen (movie theatre) for a purely aesthetic choice, but for anything else, they're on the weak side and sort of irritating. The way the titles emerged from random places all over the screen and then grew and grew the closer they got to you before fading was incredibly, incredibly irritating... seeing those lamo fonts pop up and grow all over the place with that generic dead-can-dance derivative pablum music... sheer torture - I felt like hitting something. The backgrounds - start with nondescript and transition into amorphous, not a scintilla of interest in any of it, visually or moodwise. All in all, a total disaster, IMHO. Back when I just started out working at the talent agency, and I was still a lowly flunkie, one of my jobs was to go through the unsolicited submissions - scripts and dvds. It was the worst chore of all the lowly chores the newbs had to go through. You cannot imagine having to endure the torture of hours and hours of outporings from earnest amateurs and assorted no-talents from the world over. Mindnumbingly boring, badly done, hopeless, and clearly-never-going-anywhere. This clip gave me a flashback to those bad old days: it has the same kind of "music" choice, "carefully chosen font<roll eyes>", and random incoherence.

If I were you, I'd make a powerful pot of coffee, gather your collaborators, and start over again.
/ blunt, cause ya can use it.
 
OldCorpse said:
Horrible. The music sucked, it told me nothing about the film (supposedly "fast action Japanese styled movie"), it conveyed nothing of "fast" or "action" - nor "Japanese style" for that matter, nor was it a contrast type situation where dreamy music plays against violent imagery (cause the abstract imagery also sucked), and conveyed no mood beyond a bored feeling of "oh, more college aged amateur wankers". Moving onto font choice - those fonts may work on a large screen (movie theatre) for a purely aesthetic choice, but for anything else, they're on the weak side and sort of irritating. The way the titles emerged from random places all over the screen and then grew and grew the closer they got to you before fading was incredibly, incredibly irritating... seeing those lamo fonts pop up and grow all over the place with that generic dead-can-dance derivative pablum music... sheer torture - I felt like hitting something. The backgrounds - start with nondescript and transition into amorphous, not a scintilla of interest in any of it, visually or moodwise. All in all, a total disaster, IMHO. Back when I just started out working at the talent agency, and I was still a lowly flunkie, one of my jobs was to go through the unsolicited submissions - scripts and dvds. It was the worst chore of all the lowly chores the newbs had to go through. You cannot imagine having to endure the torture of hours and hours of outporings from earnest amateurs and assorted no-talents from the world over. Mindnumbingly boring, badly done, hopeless, and clearly-never-going-anywhere. This clip gave me a flashback to those bad old days: it has the same kind of "music" choice, "carefully chosen font<roll eyes>", and random incoherence.

If I were you, I'd make a powerful pot of coffee, gather your collaborators, and start over again.
/ blunt, cause ya can use it.
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I don't know if you were joking, or what... but I'll assume you weren't.

There's constructive critisism, and then there's hurtful. You may be right OldCorpse about what you said, but it's how you said it. We're here to help each other on these boards, not put each other down.

It could have been worded a lot better than saying "cause the abstract imagery also sucked" or "and conveyed no mood beyond a bored feeling of 'oh, more college aged amateur wankers'" or "sheer torture - I felt like hitting something" or "All in all, a total disaster, IMHO."

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As for the opening. I agree with the others. Looks more like a power point presentation. A nice proffesional powerpoint presentation, but nothing more than that. Maybe try a different direction with the intro. Maybe keep the music, but change the backgrounds and the font for sure.
 
Jon Starr said:
I don't know if you were joking, or what... but I'll assume you weren't.
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Likewise.


Jon Starr said:
There's constructive critisism, and then there's hurtful. You may be right OldCorpse about what you said, but it's how you said it. We're here to help each other on these boards, not put each other down.
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I agree.

Jon Starr said:
It could have been worded a lot better than saying "cause the abstract imagery also sucked" or "and conveyed no mood beyond a bored feeling of 'oh, more college aged amateur wankers'" or "sheer torture - I felt like hitting something" or "All in all, a total disaster, IMHO."
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I'm intrigued, and open to criticism. How could it have been worded better?

I don't doubt it could be worded better in general, after all, with the possible exception of Shakespear every text ever written could be worded better, but that's not saying much unless you give a concrete example of how my text could be worded better. You haven't, so I'm in the dark.

If however, you are implying that my criticism is was not helpful, or designed to "put down", you couldn't be further from the truth. That would be astoundingly wrong.

When I was 12, I wrote my first short story. Friends and family read it. I got some criticism, and some praise. I tried to address the criticism in re-writes, but somehow nothing gelled. I then got it published in the school paper. Somebody responded with a withering critique. I was very angry. After I cooled off, I realized that my harsh critic was completely right - I needed to totally change my approach, and in fact, I did a page one re-write. The critic didn't say anything particularly new that my other friends/family audience didn't, but the no punches pulled style was exactly the kind of kick in the pants I needed to shake me out of my pre-conceptions, and send me spinning onto the road of true re-evaluation.

"Friendly" critics tend to pull their punches, sometimes even trying to "balance" negatives with finding something "positive" - in the process misleading the artist as to the depths and severity of the problem... and then the artist spends time trying to "fix" the negative while holding onto the "positive" - instead of doing a radical re-write.

You have missed the essential facet of CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM and HELPFUL CRITICISM - the psychological aspect. In order to help, you must take into account your target - are you helping? It doesn't mean "harsh out" - if for example, I see a generally good/great work with minor flaws - I often praise effusively, and point out the minor flaw (calling it "nitpicking"). Please read some of my other reviews for illustration - many, many, are of that kind. However, if I see something that tells me the work is on a completely wrong track, it is not helpful to give a dry listing of a few flaws, (as you have done below!) - that does not alert the creator to the gravity of the situation - he/she needs a TOTAL REWORK of their piece.

Now, looking at your piece:

Jon Starr said:
As for the opening. I agree with the others. Looks more like a power point presentation. A nice proffesional powerpoint presentation, but nothing more than that. Maybe try a different direction with the intro. Maybe keep the music, but change the backgrounds and the font for sure.
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I find that totally unhelpful - in contrast to my extremely helpful words - just read what you wrote... it's limp, enervated, with no sense of urgency or indeed any indication of the seriousness of the situation... this is exactly the kind of feedback which leaves the artist struggling with polishing a *urd, instead of throwing them out of their complacency. Your critique was utterly UNHELPFUL (though true, it didn't "put down").

Incidentally not only was I extremely helpful, I certainly was not putting down the creators. If I said it "sucked", it was true - and blunt about the project, not putting down creators of the project - pretty much every artist has produced something, especially on a first draft that sucked. I'm just there to tell them honestly what's up. Note further, I didn't think they were hopeless, merely their project as it stands now - in fact, I gave plenty of direct evidence. I advised to make a pot of coffee and re-start the project from scratch - not advice you give to hopeless cases, where it's better that they not re-start anything, unless they want to emulate Ed Wood. And I explained my approach explicitely when I said I'm blunt exactly to be helpful (because they can use bluntness much more than mealy mouthed criticism like yours, no offence intended).

Let me add this: the entertainment business is tough. They'll get far more tough criticism than I gave. If they can't take that - they are not suited for the business. I've worked at a major talent agency for 4 years, and I speak from experience: it's better to sort these things out now, than shield yourself and hope you can float through the business in a bubble. It won't work. Toughen up - it can only help you.

Finally, what you said was wrong on another level. Honest, blunt, competent critics are worth their weight in gold. Treasure them. One look from such a critic, when evaluating your project is worth more than all the "friends" type critics (and mealy mouthed platitudes like your criticism is an example of).

If you can't stand the heat - get out of the kitchen. If you put up your piece, expect honest opinions, if you are looking to have your ego stroked, just show your stuff to your grandma, and don't waste anybody's time. How you react to criticism says more about your ultimate prospects as an artist than any mistakes you may have made in your project.

I wrote out in detail not to "put you down", Jon Starr, but to help you appreciate how to become a better critic. How you take it... well, see the sentence in red above :thumbsup:.

Let us keep this place helpful to everybody, instead of another lame coffee klatch cum mutual adoration of cliques type morass. Don't put down, but don't let somebody stay lying down, when they could be soaring! Love and kisses :love4: :love4: :love4: !
 
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Well, yeah, Old Corpse - but don't try to make anyone believe that you originally meant to use words such as "sucks" (always annoying to me that this is used as a pejorative to begin with), "horrible" and "disaster" in the spirit of constructive help.

I've been pretty harsh in my critiques at times on this board, but I would really have to reconsider my motives if I used any of the above words. You certainly did make some valid points, but I'm not sure your particular "blunt, cause ya can use it" style of teaching was successful this time.

If the student doesn't come back to the classroom, then the teacher has failed...
 
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Bus No. 8 said:
Well, yeah, Old Corpse - but don't try to make anyone believe that you originally meant to use words such as "sucks" (always annoying to me that this is used as a pejorative to begin with), "horrible" and "disaster" in the spirit of constructive help.

I've been pretty harsh in my critiques at times on this board, but I would really have to reconsider my motives if I used any of the above words. You certainly did make some valid points, but I'm not sure your particular "blunt, cause ya can use it" style of teaching was successful this time.
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I can respect a difference in opinion, I simply see it differently. As you know, sometimes it's better to use those words (such as I used) than "soft" words, for reasons I already explained in detail in the other post, so I won't repeat them here. It's an honest difference of opinion, and I respect yours.

Bus No. 8 said:
If the student doesn't come back to the classroom, then the teacher has failed...
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I totally understand where you're coming from. My perspective is slightly different. If this were a classroom and it's elementary education, and you're dealing with kids, not adults - yeah, you're right. The situation here is critically different. It's more like bootcamp. When you first land at basic training the whole point is that it separates the men from the boys. You'll encounter a lot worse in the entertainment business - if you flunk out now, with this bit, hey, that's how it's supposed to work! Separate those who can hack it from those who can't. Anyone who has ever worked or interned at a talent agency knows what I'm talking about - you do the harsh hours, the harsh bosses, and the harsh working conditions, cause if you survive this, you've learned valuable skills, and if you don't and you quit - well, that's good too, cause it tells you "this ain't your kinda gig". Works well for everyone, really, including those who grasp that there may be other things they are better suited for. You are doing them a favor by being blunt (as long as you are correct, and not just wrong and abusive, though I've dealt with that too!). It's a tough business.
 
Nathaniel, I'm not going to engage in the subjects above, It appears there may be a pissing contest going on of some sort. Don't worry, I'm sure I'll get beat myself for grammar/spelling issues... however, I couldn't help but notice that your first motion background was Digital Juice Wedding Volume # whatever brought into the Juicer and colored red... I know you want to be a filmmaker... as allot of do... with that being said... Shoot some Film... Blur the heck out of it, tint it... then add some titles, add some NOISE,... what I'm getting at is, get a little more creative... I know Digital Juice Jump Backs can be addicting, I myself fell into that trap however, I broke loose...
Anyhoot just a sugestion...
 
The situation here is critically different. It's more like bootcamp. When you first land at basic training the whole point is that it separates the men from the boys.

Really? Who says? Isn't there room for men and boys (and maybe even girls and women) on this board? Film school should be a lot more like boot-camp. An internship with a professional company should be more like bootcamp.

This is a public forum where people come for a lot of different reasons and from a lot of different skill levels and goals for their work. Who asked you to be the bad-ass drill sergeant?

As you know, sometimes it's better to use those words (such as I used) than "soft" words

Really? I don't see how your tough-love words are really that helpful or constructive. NC17'z critique, above, is constructive and specific and doesn't pull any punches, but it's also respectful, and I think that should be the critical difference here.

Anyway, I'm done playing word games. On to the next topic.
 
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Bus No. 8 said:
The situation here is critically different. It's more like bootcamp. When you first land at basic training the whole point is that it separates the men from the boys.

Really? Who says? Isn't there room for men and boys (and maybe even girls and women) on this board? Film school should be a lot more like boot-camp. An internship with a professional company should be more like bootcamp.

This is a public forum where people come for a lot of different reasons and from a lot of different skill levels and goals for their work. Who asked you to be the bad-ass drill sergeant?
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Nobody had to ask me - I answered a request for feedback. I gave the response I thought was appropriate. If you have a different way, that's your business and I don't ask "who asked you" - that's a stupid question. Everybody here gives their feedback as they deem it appropriate, and I'm not about to control that, thank you.

Yes, this is a forum where people come from different goals for their work and skill levels. And these particular people, had as a goal "fast action, Japanese styled" - and my answer was geared to that. There also might be 14 year olds who are making a home movie about their grandma's pet goldfish, at which point different advice applies to them, and I leave that to those who feel best equipped for that. I took a look at who is asking for what, and I gave my best advice. You are welcome to do the same, and I won't try to tell you how to give your advice, thanks.

Bus No. 8 said:
As you know, sometimes it's better to use those words (such as I used) than "soft" words

Really? I don't see how your tough-love words are really that helpful or constructive. Jesus, you might as well have called him fat while you were at it. NC17'z critique is constructive and specific and doesn't pull any punches, but it's also respectful, and that's the critical difference here.

Anyway, I'm done playing word games. On to the next topic.
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I already explained how I thought it was helpful to use those words. You can't see it, that's not my problem. I get to say what I feel is right. You get to say what you think is right, and I certainly won't tell you how to give your advice, whether I "get it" or not, thank you.

Anyone who has worked in the industry at any level understands, that criticism which is far more violent and harsh than what I offered here is a daily occurance. If you melt into a little puddle every time a director yells at you, you won't last. Not long ago, there was a discussion on these boards about how David O. Russell threw a fit at an actress. Everybody understands how this works - from the beginning of cinema, and in every aspect of it, screenwriting, acting, directing and so on. If you think that what I said is unduly harsh, then better make puppet movies by yourself and put them up on youtube, cause reality will catch up soon enough. Have you ever sat in on story meetings with directors? Have you ever read coverage for scripts? Have you ever seen how badly the screenwriter is torn to pieces by the reader? And you complain about my innocuous remarks? You won't last 5 seconds - better find that out now. Your precious little ego will be in for a battering.

Anyhow, I'm done with this too. I've said my piece. Those who have a brain will extract from this what they need. Real artists don't shrink from criticism. Those who don't have the brains to understand that attacking the messenger doesn't change the message, can go on doing their thing. It's Darwin at work.

This is my last post in this thread. I offered criticism. I certainly am not interested in derailing this with "kill the messenger" nonsense. Don't like my posts or my style? Please ignore them and don't read them, we don't need flame wars here. 'Bye.
 
I agree with everythign bus No. 8 said. Old Corpse, this isn't some boot camp. We're here to share ideas and help each other. Like you say, there's very harsh critisism out there in the real world and we're all going to experience (and we know it), if we already haven't already. Why bring it onto these boards as well? I don't get your logic. It's a community here of film makers trying to learn, often reffered to as an online school of sorts. Once we go out into the real world the men will be seperated from the boys anyways.

My film teachers tell me the truth. They'll say it's not good, it needs to be done over again. But they never use words like "sucks" "a disaster" "very very irritating" etc... Those types of words are meant to hurt, even if it wasn't your intention.

You could have easily said "It needs a full re-write" "Start all over again" "I didn't enjoy it at all" etc... I don't see how that's "nitpicking" and unhelpful. You want to tell him that everything is bad and he needs to completely re-do it? Then tell him. Don't give him any positive feedback. I gave him positive feedback because I had some, as did others. But that being said, that's no reason to have been that harsh with your criticism.

I would continue to argue with that you said about my post, but I think I'll stop here as I feel like I'd be wasting my time. You obviously have a very different opinion from everyone else on these boards (at least bus and I).

I haven't been in this argument except for my first post so I felt a need to defend myself. But with that being said, I'm done as well.
 
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NC17z said:
Nathaniel, I'm not going to engage in the subjects above, It appears there may be a pissing contest going on of some sort. Don't worry, I'm sure I'll get beat myself for grammar/spelling issues... however, I couldn't help but notice that your first motion background was Digital Juice Wedding Volume # whatever brought into the Juicer and colored red... I know you want to be a filmmaker... as allot of do... with that being said... Shoot some Film... Blur the heck out of it, tint it... then add some titles, add some NOISE,... what I'm getting at is, get a little more creative... I know Digital Juice Jump Backs can be addicting, I myself fell into that trap however, I broke loose...
Anyhoot just a sugestion...
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I dont know where you got this verdict from. It was Apple Live type grahics with colour correct.
 
OldCorpse is right. Some people can be taught by kind words. They have to be verbally abused. Im glad Im not one of those people.
 
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