Nate Weaver
Veteran
There was probably detail turned on on the F55.
F55: Feature Tour Of The F55
- Thread starter nsoltz
- Start date
There was probably detail turned on on the F55.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Thanks for the notes. We had so many things we could have discussed at the event. In the end we had to pick what we felt were the most important points on the cameras without flooding everyone with so much info that eyes glazed over. As for the F5, that proto unfortunately suffered an issue before it made it to Abel and it could not send a signal to a monitor. We certainly wanted to show the image, but least we had the F55 running and recorded footage from both.
Michelle Farrell
Member
Oh okay, I did not know that Mitch. thanx for answering about the F5 monitor.
eddavid
Carbonite Member
the F55 already has one plus over the F65 - size. The F65 is quite a large fellow. I hope that the F55 is pretty much as good as the F65. Say they sold 4,000 units of the f55 sold at 40k a pop or so vs 1000 units of the F65 sold at 65k a pop - seems a lot better to me for Sony's stand point. Millions of dollars more. But I'm not an economics major. Plus they do need to compete with the upcoming Alexa II and Red Dragon and Aaton has something coming.
It's a tough world for high end cinema makers, and I think this is their attempt to stay relevant when prices come down.
Which leaves me to the question - what happened to Panasonic? How come they never got into the cinema game? I guess in the end the cinema market may not even sell in the thousands like that. I wonder what the stats are for how many digital cinema cameras there are in the world.
It's a tough world for high end cinema makers, and I think this is their attempt to stay relevant when prices come down.
Which leaves me to the question - what happened to Panasonic? How come they never got into the cinema game? I guess in the end the cinema market may not even sell in the thousands like that. I wonder what the stats are for how many digital cinema cameras there are in the world.
Panasonic showed a mock-up under glass at NAB 2012 of a modular 4K Varicam. Nothing more has been said about it. Perhaps we will be surprised at NAB 2013. Panasonic pro video has been merged into the same division that produces Toughbook notebooks and there has been a reduction in R&D. The HPX600 is shipping and is now a single 2/3" camera. NAB 2012 brought talk of a release of the long-promised AVC-Ultra so we will see what happens at NAB 2013. Panasonic has definite market niches but I don't see their entry into the large sensor cinema camera world to the same extent as the guys fighting it out now-- Sony, Red, Arri and Canon. Aaton as well. And for the very high end, I don't expect Panavision to sit around watching Genesis cameras age. I think a 4K Varicam would be a worthy market entry since competition advances the market-- and we are the beneficiaries.
It's a tough world for the camera makers. It's a great world for camera buyers.
Ned
It's a tough world for the camera makers. It's a great world for camera buyers.
Ned
Cripple is the wrong word. Cripple would be giving the F55 a feature and then making it work only half way.
I would say the F55 is already built not to be as "good" as the F65 because it meets a price point. This is not crippling. It's market placement.
The thing is, at the level the F65 is aimed at, they are not worried about size as much as us poor fellows down here in the normal world. How much does it matter for a Tecnocrane if the camera weights a few pounds more? How about a geared head or even O'Conoor head? How about a Fisher?
If that was the case it would replace the F65. Not co-exist with it. It would probably be called something like F85 too.
In all seriousness, the naming convention already tells you where it sits in the food chain.
And they are. Sony made a lot of money building the Genesis for Panavision, which is probably the most successful digital cinema camera to date. And the RED ONE was already around and costing about the same as a 2 week rental of the Genesis. Did it matter? Again you forget that the market for the F65 is not counting pennies like the independent market. The F65 has a 8k sensor and a lot of advantages over even the Alexa. Hollywood could care less if it costs the double. It has been just a few months since they started shipping the F65 and it has already shot 9 Hollywood features.
I think this is just Sony's way to stick it up to RED. It's like they are saying, "You can cut corners, cheap out, have your cameras made in Singapore and offer them for less, well guess what, we can also do that and we don't even need to cheap out with foreign manufacturing."
Just looking at the F55 and F65 you can see which camera is more well built for example and more production ready. The F5/55 can resemble the Alexa in shape but it also takes just one look to see the Alexa means more business.
To be honest, there are only very few companies in the digital cinema game now, and they are Panavision, Arri, RED and Sony. But because of the F35/F65 and not because of cameras like the F3. Canon is not. They are in the prosumer market and so is Panasonic too. So Panasonic is around and doing business in their market level as is JVC and all the others.
I don't see Canon in there. Their cameras are basically prosumer. Just because they can record 4K with some recorder don't make them cinema cameras. In a year or so we will have small chip cameras recording 4K internal. This is not the deciding factor. C300/500 is nothing more than this day and age XL1.
Rumors are they are working on a full-frame or 65mm digital cinema camera and lenses to fit.
eddavid
Carbonite Member
Good points Adam but why all the hate on Canon - they are new to the game but a lot of people are starting to play seriously with the C300 and the C500 for feature work. And by that I mean indie stuff. Low budget. You are of course right - Hollywood is not shooting Men in Black 4 on the C500. I don't think Sony makes much on rentals, so the F55 seems to be more of a focus for them than the F65. And I think the F65 is quite brilliant. But I think the F55 will be a bigger money maker for them.
But hey, why even talk about this - why does it matter ? Sure the F55 is not as good as the F65 - but to me, it seems hopefully like it's 80% as much of a camera as the F65 but an easier workflow, and an easier camera to use for smaller crews, lighter gear, etc. So the F55 has more interest to me than the F65.
But hey, why even talk about this - why does it matter ? Sure the F55 is not as good as the F65 - but to me, it seems hopefully like it's 80% as much of a camera as the F65 but an easier workflow, and an easier camera to use for smaller crews, lighter gear, etc. So the F55 has more interest to me than the F65.
Oh, no hate at all. It's just what it is really. At the moment my personal camera is an AF100. I rent when I need a better camera as I don't feel it's worth it to own an expensive camera in this day and age. I prefer to invest in quality lenses, which will fit any camera I use and out live any camera I can buy now and in the next 10 or 20 years. But I'm the first one to say the AF100 is a prosumer camera, as is the FS100, FS700, F3, C100, C300 and C500. It's not hating.
Hence, prosumer.
There have been movies made with the XL1, PD150, PD100 which got wide releases at cinemas. But that doesn't change what type of cameras they are.
Oh, I think it will be at least 80%. I think it will probably be very close to the F65. But as they say, the last 10%, the cherry on the top, the icing on the cake is always what makes the most difference and costs the most.
Of course. But keep in mind easier workflow in a camera of same age normally means worse quality. Is it easier to work with compressed 1080p than uncompressed? Sure. Which one is better? Not saying this is the case with the F55. Just saying that cheaper and easier may come with trade offs, and often times, in this business they do.
legrevedotcom
Veteran
Check the pana linkedin group.... something is definitely under way. Imagine shooting with a medium format sized chip and vintage hasselblad lenses..... yum yum
Check the pana linkedin group.... something is definitely under way. Imagine shooting with a medium format sized chip and vintage hasselblad lenses..... yum yum
Considering how much talk there is about the 5D's mojo because of the full frame sensor, Panavision seems to be on the right way to differentiate themselves from the rest of the high-end bunch.
All RED cameras are currently built in the USA. Components and all.... One of the reasons i went that route. 'Murica
Kolor-Pikker
Well-known member
Hmm, lets see...
DSLR around $3000, MFD around $30,000 average.
F55 around $30,000, Panavision around... :grin:
Medium format video cameras... I shudder at the thought.
I bet that by the time the digital Pana camera comes out, MFDBs will gain video recording capability, so who's going to be first to proclaim the purchase of a Phase One camera as an economical alternative? LOL.
Did I say economic? Last thing Panavision is is economic. Panavision is and always was a luxury for those can afford it. No idea where you're coming from with this economic alternative nonsense. To be honest, most of your post makes no sense.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
The F65 has a higher resolution sensor which can output a very clean 4K. The F55 sensor is 4K.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Since when did "not currently being used for major Hollywood feature" equate to "prosumer"? There are plenty of PROFESSIONAL high end devices which are not used for Hollywood moviemaking, but that doesn't make them any less professional tools. Surely the fact that major broadcast network shows are being shot exclusively with the C300 should qualify it? Same goes for some of the other cameras you mentioned. Who spends $20K on a "prosumer" device?
Maybe prosumer was the wrong word, used for lack of a better term on the spot. Low-end would probably be a better fit. Hollywood doesn't normally use low-end equipment. Too much money riding on those productions to risk it just to skip a "few" dollars.