Feature Project - To Boom or not to Boom

Bluewave07

Bluewave07

Active member
Hey guys,
In two weeks I'm starting filming on a big project that's been in pre-production for quite awhile. Most of the filming will take place outside, but in locations with minimal wind exposure, such as alleys. Also all outside shots will be at night so ambient noise is low.

My question is this. I have been looking at the Oktava Mk012 for several months and questioning whether I should buy one to mount on a boom. The only problem is that boomed okatavas, as we know, require shockmounts, poles, phantom power, etc. Almost $300. Also, the big problem is that I have an inexperienced boom operator.

Should I just stick it out with the onboard mic? Were only 17 and 18 years olds and this is the last project that were going to do in high school most likely so were trying to make it as good as possible. Also, I have the money to afford the mic, I'm just unsure if its beneficial if we still have an inexperienced boom operator.

My third option is a camera mounted mic, but i know that these are typically inferior to booming the subject.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!
 
Thanks so much guys for the quick responses so far. But overall you think that the audio with an Oktava mk012 is worth paying for over the onboard...I have enough money to afford it, but $300 total in booming costs is alot for an 18 yr old
 
Bluewave07 said:
Thanks so much guys for the quick responses so far. But overall you think that the audio with an Oktava mk012 is worth paying for over the onboard...I have enough money to afford it, but $300 total in booming costs is alot for an 18 yr old
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You are just not going to be happy trying to do it with the on-board mic. Take some time to go over the stickies in the audio section, I think they discuss the Oktava in there. Listen to guys like Wabbit, Oleg 2, MattinSTL, Jeremy, ptlasky and timapter.
 
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HOLY SMOKES YES! Remember---- good sound is about 70% of the audience experience. The best cinematography in the world will be useles if the dialog is not clear and clean. If you want people to be able to sit through your piece, the sound HAS to be good. Shooting a big important project over multiple days would be a complete waste if you are relying on 'camera mic' audio.

-Vic



Bluewave07 said:
Thanks so much guys for the quick responses so far. But overall you think that the audio with an Oktava mk012 is worth paying for over the onboard...I have enough money to afford it, but $300 total in booming costs is alot for an 18 yr old
Click to expand...
 
Try to find someone in your area that can help you with sound. I don't know where you are or who you know but it's worth looking. Renting might be another option.
 
I judge for a short film festival and the biggest thing that sets the amateurish films apart from the ones that have some polish is...sound.

If you have an inexperienced boom operator, it still might not be a bad idea to think about renting lavs. A good lav setup will give you a lot of flexibility, but beware of using them when doing a ton of movement.

If that idea doesn't appeal to you then boom away, but do not shoot with on-camera mics.
 
Assuming you are approaching this like a student film then the whole idea is to learn. Part of that learning is getting good audio. So your boom ops sucks? Through trial and error he will learn how to suck less and you will learn how to approach sound better on your next picture.

If you just give up and say, "we can't do it well, so we won't bother trying" then you mind as well say that about every aspect of your film. Not to discourage you but; you are going to have lighting issues, continuity problems, inconsistent and probably even poor acting, editing will be uneven and even confusing at times, etc. Basically, low production value everywhere you turn.

But that is cool; that is how you learn. You get the same thing going to film school but on a slightly more efficient and expensive level. If you find yourself getting discouraged, watch other people's student films. They ALL suck.

The only failure is to stop trying. Just do your best to get everything done as well as possible (sound included), realize it will probably still suck, and then try again.

As far as practical advice; search around for someone your age interested in audio. Often guys/gals interested in audio have spent their youth focused on music and haven't even thought about the film industry. Go talk to some kids in the local music scene and you can probably find someone to set a lightbulb off in their head. Have them do some research, read some books (like this one: http://www.dplay.com/book/index.html ), and come in here or other forums to ask questions.

More then likely your audio will still have lots of issues but it will be 1000% better then the on-camera mic. Next time out, it will be 1000% better then your first time. By the time your 21 or so, you and your friends will have enough skills to make some festival quality films.

As a side note: all the lessons are just as quickly learned on short films. The best advice I could offer is to make a number of shorts before embarking on a feature length.

Good luck
 
Bluewave07 said:
Thanks so much guys for the quick responses so far. But overall you think that the audio with an Oktava mk012 is worth paying for over the onboard...I have enough money to afford it, but $300 total in booming costs is alot for an 18 yr old
Click to expand...

You also said: "starting filming on a big project that's been in pre-production for quite awhile."

If that's true, you need the following:
Mic: Octava MC012 with hypercardioid capsule
or Audix SCX-1 mic with hyper capsule.
Mixer: ENG-44 from Sign Video
Audio snake to go from Mixer to camera.
Audio cable to go from mic to mixer
Boom: K-tek makes a less expensive aluminum one.
They also make suspension mounts and zep wind breakers.
You absolutely need a zep or some sort of wind breaker.
Headphones: Sony MDR 7506.
Batteries.

This is not top of the line gear. It's "get you in the door" gear.

If you don't do this, your audio will be bad,

If you do this, your audio can still be bad if you don't use the gear right.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
If you can't buy a boom, use a painter's pole. Go to the hardware store and adapt the shockmount to it. Rode makes a $40 shockmount that they sell at B and H. You are going to have the biggest problem with wind. The Oktava is very sensitive to wind and vibration (you have to have the shockmount). sound-room.com (where you get the oktava with the hyper cardiod capsule for $183) also sells a foam windscreen for $50, it is not really good enough to use outside or to swing the boom without "wooshing" but it may work on a calm day in an alley. The "real" solution is the rycote 20mm Baby Ball Gag ($140) and the furry windjammer ($70), at Gitzo 12.5' carbon fiber boom ($250), a kssm shockmount ($100). Use the best tools that you can.

Hey and if you are filming mainly outside, the Rode NTG1 shotgun is what you want anyway (hypers inside, shotguns outside). You still need wind protection they make a thing called a rycote softie ($100). Don't forget your XLRs. Try to get good ones (Audio Technica makes decent stuff for cheap).

All of this assumes that your camera has XLR inputs and can supply phantom power.

Also read this...

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=51526

Oh ya, mic it close 1-2' away just out of frame above.
 
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[quote=saneproductions (hypers inside, shotguns outside).

This, of course, is a generalization. If you are in a small alley, you'll probably want they hyper.

Here's the deal. Shotguns are not as directional at mid and low frequencies. They don't work in any reflactive area, inside or out.

If you were inside on an acoustically damped studio, you could use a shotgun.

Regarrds,

Ty Ford
 
Thanks to everyone for he great responses so far. Your help is amazing and has helped me shape the following plan, tell me what you think:

1. Oktava MK012 (Sound-room)
2. Shockmount (The $50 one from sound-room)
3. Painters Pole for Booming (Home Depot)

This leads me to a couple questions...I have the DVX100B, but that still means I need some sort of Phantom Power source to run the mic, right? From my understanding I still need the cables to run from the mic to the phantom power provider then from there to the camera...but this is simply what I have gathered from talking to some people...

Also, I play the guitar and have a 20 ft Monster cable that I use to run from the guitar to the Amp. Forgive me, as im a noob at guitar and audio in general, but is this equivalent to an XLR cable, or the cable that I'll be needing to run from the mic to the Phantom power thing? Thanks a lot!

Matt
 
One more thing:

Would a DIY shockmount and DIY windscreen be alternatives to spending upwards of $100 for both of them? I've seen stuff on here about DIY alternatives for those...what would you guys recommend, keeping in mind that beyond the cost of the mic, I only have about $75. Thanks!
 
take the audio technica or psc mount , they are better
buy large foam which will sit over the small one , buy a fure and make some condom which would sit over the both foams , i think all that will go for less then 75
 
We could rename this thread "Feature project -- audio to suck or not to suck?" Because that's the choice you're making. Do you want horrible horrific awful nasty unlistenable echoey butt-nasty audio? Or do you want decent-quality audio? Use the on-camera mic, (or any microphone mounted on the camera) and you'll get horrible horrific awful nasty unlistenable echoey butt-nasty audio. Why go through all the effort to make your project when you're guaranteeing yourself that it'll sound like that?

Booming is the only way. Using the on-camera mic is like filming your epic using a cell phone camera. With the lens cap on. Pointed the wrong way. :thumbsup:

So, for the economics of the situation: do you have to buy all the gear? Can you find someone who's already got it who will loan or rent it to you? Can you find someone who's already bought all that stuff and is now feeling guilty about seeing $1,000 worth of stuff sitting on their shelves unused, so they'll agree to come out and work your shoot just to help you out and to get themselves some experience too?
 
The DVX 100 can provide phantom power to mics, so you are good. I still suggest the rode mic and shockmount.

If I were primarily shooting outdoors and I had no budget I would get.

$230 Rode NTG-1
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=8533&A=details&Q=&sku=367746&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

$50 Rode SM-3 Shockmount (cam or boom mountable)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=398316&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

$40 Rode Wind Muff (Dead Cat) -to go over the stock foam
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=details_accessories&A=details&Q=&sku=392861&is=REG&addedTroughValue=367746_REG&addedTroughType=accessory_detail

$89 Rode Boom 10' (it is not the best, but better than a a painter's pole)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=392860&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

A decent 50' XLR
Decent headphones (preferably Sony 7560)

The wind protection/shockmount for the oktava is just too important to get it without. Read here.. (you even need the Baby Ball Gag INDOORS!) Listen to Matt, he knows his $htuff.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=83151&highlight=Oktava+Wind
 
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A couple of things to consider-

First, find someone with the experience and equipment to help you out. You can post on Craig's List for your area and see if any one responds. I know we all laugh about the "we can't afford to pay you but we're going to Sundance - Yay!" types of posts, but if you've got a few hundred dollars you were going to spend on equipment, offer that money to someone with experience, you never know what might happen (I've been known to cut my rates down significantly if I like the people and the script.

If you really don't want to go that route, then look on eBay for used equipment - though don't be tempted to buy the Octava on eBay. The ONLY safe place to buy an Octava is from sound-room.com (be sure to use the DV coupon code for a discount). But, given that you're shooting mostly outdoors, go with a shotgun first (the Rode is a good value for the price). Don't order from B&H, go with Trew or Coffey.

Good luck with your project. Many have already said this, but I will repeat it - crappy sound makes for a crappy movie, no matter how beautiful the pictures.

Phil
 
Sorry I was not clear, don't buy from B and H. They do have lots of pictures on their site, so it is fun to browse or price things out.
 
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