Feature Length Narrative: HMC150 vs 7D?

H

haperez

Member
From a visual point of view only.

I just want to know, if you have choice between the HMC150 or 7D for an indie feature, which camera should you pick?

Assuming
Only one camera will be used.
Audio will be recorded separate
Professional lighting will be used
The feature will be shot in the same lines as Manhattan, the Apartment, Tiny Furniture, and Winters bone.

I know that both cameras shoot 4:2:0, similar question has been posted before, but the thread that focus on it is from 2009, when the 7D just came out, and I would like to have a fresh input ( http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-(resolution-amp-color)-of-HMC150-vs-Canon-7D)

Thanks for all your help
 
Hi how's it going, I'm a bit new to this forum (well as far as registering) but thought I could help chime in on this. I just got picked up to shoot a doc on an HMC. I have been shooting for the last year and a half on a 7D and now I need to learn the HMC. When I first picked it up I absolutely hated the footage. Then I thought, well at least I don't have to worry about focus as much, well I almost feel it's the opposite as even with Focus assist I find it hard to even tell when something is sharp. If your going to be lighting and making everything look good there is no way you will be happier with the look of the HMC over the 7D IMO, but it does require a bit more crew as you give up zooming for dollies and need a focus puller etc. Well worth it though as it's a lot closer to a cinema look.
 
Given the choice I would also choose the 7D. Under controlled circumstances, it makes great images. Of course, with the 7D, there is going to be additional considerations, such as lenses, and support gear (Cage or rail system), but I think with the advice that is available on forums like this one, a 7D would work out fine for a fictional narrative film.
 
I own both cameras (or did until recently), how large a screen are you planning on showing this on? Is it for theatrical release, or just youtube, etc? Are you planning on doing a lot of color grading on it? Special effects? Neither will hold up will without transcoding. Without a letus, you will be hard pressed to get decent DOF out of the HMC150, though my footage with it was just beautiful, yet better suited to outside documentary work. You will be pressing the 7d to it's limits, but could get the job done with it. There's a lot of color issues with the 7D, like oranges being bad looking in artifical light. But, you will get a lot of great footage. There is a spectacular hour long doc coming out in September from Eric Becker (check Vimeo), virtually all shot with 7D. It's really outstanding, and much of it would have been hard to shoot with the 150, given DOF, etc. It has a very filmic look to it. The 7D is a great camera, and I just shot all day with it with no overheating issues. But you'll spend more than a 150 to get all the lens you'll need. Maybe you should save up more money and buy an AF100 (or rent one). That would give you the quality to go to theatrical size release.
 
8string said:
I own both cameras (or did until recently), how large a screen are you planning on showing this on? Is it for theatrical release, or just youtube, etc? Are you planning on doing a lot of color grading on it? Special effects?.
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Thanks for all the posts in this thread. My goal is to show the narrative in the big screen, for a theatrical release. There will be some color grading if needed, with no special effects. There will be a mixture of scenes indoors and outdoors.

I have considered to get the Af100, but after adding the lenses (one zoom, two primes) the cost can increase dramatically. I already have the followfocus with rails, shoulder mount , tripod, external hd monitor, and I just need to figure what camera (hmc150 or canon 7d) that can give me the best quality of image. My budget right know is $3500.

Thanks for all your feedback
 
If you were doing run and gun-style shooting I'd say go for the 150. However, since this will be a controlled shoot, I'll echo what others have said and advise to go with the 7D. It's a little more work but the quality of the footage will be much better (not to mention you'll also get a great stills camera).

Of course you also need to factor in the cost of lenses but a good quality lens will last you 15-20 years if you take care of it.
 
I would personally go for an AF100. Comes with a 14-250 lens now, though only a f4.

I find DSLRs a royal pain in the ass to work with in regards to video.
 
Wait -- are you borrowing from someone? Or buying? From the initial post it almost made it sound like you were borrowing from someone, and those were the two that were available. If you're buying a new camera, no question, absolutely, get the AF100. Best of both worlds, without the drawbacks of the DSLR, and aimed specifically at the job you're trying to do. Get it with the 14-140 and then add a cheap 50/1.4 and you'll be pretty well positioned to shoot just about anything.
 
Barry_Green said:
Wait -- are you borrowing from someone? Or buying?
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Barry, Thanks for the reply.

To be more specific, I can borrow the HMC150 for free or buy a 7D with some lenses up to $3500. The AF100, looks very nice but it will required to have an additional investment.

But from what I see, I will be better positioned if I save up some money and just get the AF100.

Thanks for the feedback
 
Well, hey, free is free. A free HMC150 with a lens adapter sure beats spending $3500 on a 7D package! Factor in resale costs too, because you can always sell after the project is done, and recoup a big chunk of what you spent.
 
Barry_Green said:
Well, hey, free is free. A free HMC150 with a lens adapter sure beats spending $3500 on a 7D package! Factor in resale costs too, because you can always sell after the project is done, and recoup a big chunk of what you spent.
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I have considered getting an adapter such as the letus extreme or the redrock M3, or even the M2 in ebay for less than $1000, but I read in some threads in this website that with the HMC150 is better to shoot with the lens naked than adding an adapter.

How truthfull is the statement? and what lenses to use for the adapter with this camera?

At the end, my ultimate goal is to have the best quality of imagine for the narrative without going broke.

Based on the thread feedback, it should be safe to conclude that the best camera in terms of quality of image for a feature narrative is the AF100. When comparing the HMC150 vs 7D, the best is 7D for controlled environments, but HMC150 is good for documentary work.
 
Why not get ONE HMC150 (used around $2500) and a GH2 ($1100) and call it a day? Two cameras, one for DOF shots, the other for all audio and normal safe shots...? I use two HMC150s and a GH2 and LOVE the results. Thinking about getting another GH2, its that great of a camera... Superior to the 7D in terms of video, batteries are relatively inexpensive, cards are cheap... Great little camera...
 
Why not rent and adapter and use the free HMC150? Save up your money later for an AF100?

The AF100 has dropped a fair bit in price. I believe you can get one with 14-140 f4 lens for under 5 grand. Depending on your lighting and f4 lens might do it for you until you can add some primes to your collection.

I think someone has a thread on here about the AF100 and cost effective (used?) lens choices.

If I was you I would try some test shots with a naked HMC150. Use the usual tricks the get as shallow DoF as you can get and see how it looks. I shot part of a feature using a bare HMC150 and it looked fine. Part was shot on a 7D. I shot on the HMC150, and amateur (director with no camera experience) shot the 7D footage and my footage looked better. (You really do need to know what your doing when shooting with any camera).

It's funny but I saw someone shooting for a short film that had no idea what ND filters (or even iso settings on that cam) were. He shot the whole thing in the bright sun with the iris almost closed. He had a hard time figuring out why his t2i footage didn't look as "shallow" as other films shot on a t2i.
 
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haperez said:
I have considered getting an adapter such as the letus extreme or the redrock M3, or even the M2 in ebay for less than $1000, but I read in some threads in this website that with the HMC150 is better to shoot with the lens naked than adding an adapter.
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Don't know who would say that. An HMC150 with an adapter will look pretty fantastic, and definitely more cinematic than a naked HMC150.

and what lenses to use for the adapter with this camera?
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Same ones you would be using with the 7D or AF100. Depends on the mount; if you get an EOS mount on the adapter, you'd use the exact same lenses as the 7D would.

At the end, my ultimate goal is to have the best quality of imagine for the narrative without going broke.

Based on the thread feedback, it should be safe to conclude that the best camera in terms of quality of image for a feature narrative is the AF100. When comparing the HMC150 vs 7D, the best is 7D for controlled environments, but HMC150 is good for documentary work.
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If that's your goal, then I'd say get the AF100, and sell it when you're done.

If your goal is to get great quality the cheapest possible way, take the free HMC150 and rent someone's 35mm adapter, like Denwa said.
 
EDIT: this was shot on an HPX170, which is the same chips, the same lens, basically the same camera as the HMC150. We used a Letus Ultimate adapter. It's not 100% exactly what you'd get from an HMC150, but I dare say that it would be a rare person who would be able to tell the difference.

For comparison, this was shot by the same cinematographer, on an AF100.

And this was shot on an HVX200 with a prototype Letus Extreme adapter. The HMC150 is pretty much a better camera, definitely better imaging, than the HVX200, but we did this on an HVX200...

So -- having shot on a 7D, having shot HVX200 and HPX170/HMC150 with an adapter, and having shot on the AF100, which would I use today? Unquestionably the AF100. But that doesn't mean you can't get great results with the others, and if money's tight and you have access to a free HMC150 and a cheap adapter, you can really get excellent results out of it. Just be aware that it will take a lot more light to do it, than the AF100 or 7D would need
 
OH, I didn't know the eos adpater was out yet. Nice to know. How do you adjust the iris?
 
I own the HMC150, I owned an HPX170 (until last week), I own a Letus Ultimate and a vast collection of Zeiss and Nikkor primes, I own the 7D and various Canon primes and zooms, and other stuff -- and my honest answer to the OP is -- the 5D Mark 2.

None of the cameras in any part of this discussion are perfect. There is no one single perfect solution for all production needs.

The HMC150 with an adapter works. My rig (with Letus rails) looks like an automatic weapon and weights about thirteen pounds. It can't be thrown in a backpack, and you need to bring along traditional (usually three point) lighting. The results are good, and if you've got post production capabilities like Premiere/After Effects CS5 -- you can deliver to any destination. Lighting is key to making this work.

The 7D (or 5D Mark 2) fits in your backpack and you only need one tiny light or you can shoot entirely with available light. Even with a separate sound recorder -- it still fits in your backpack. Actually, with something like a Zoom H4n -- you can record better audio than with any camcorder at any price (learning curve, you need to know what you're doing). The results from either the 5D or 7D can be absolutely magnificent in a very big way.

At this very instant I'm in the late stages of production of a local historical documentary that includes interview footage with both of the above options. The HMC with Letus Ultimate looks good, certainly better than any standard fixed lens camcorder. And, the 7D headshot interview footage looks better. Period. And I say this as the guy who insisted we needed to spend the money on the camera ($3500), the adapter ($4000+), and the lenses (initially about $3000 on the Zeiss primes) -- and as the guy who argued against the $1700 Canon 7D and $300 Zoom H4n.

If I'm on a stabilizer -- the 7D sucks and the HMC150 produces usable results (ccd sensors and 60p without dramatic aliasing -- although there can be some aliasing with the 150).

And, of course, everyone is amazed each day with some unique idea using a "GoPro" -- and I think that's about two hundred.

So, really, my point is that either of the options you cited can be made to work -- and neither are perfect. Both have their own set of issues and challenges. The good and bad news is that there's no perfect camera no matter how much you spend.

Knowing what I know now, if I was forced to make the choice you specify -- I'd go for the 7D with a set of classic Nikkor primes (and the Zoom H4n with a quality lav and shotgun). This gives you both still and motion capabilities. The problem is that you'd need to know what I know now to reach the best potential. So -- if your HMC150 is free -- focus on your script and learn on the 150. The HMC150 also has a ***** of a learning curve -- that's why the sample footage you see online spans beneath awful up to cinematic art (the 7D has a much easier learning curve).

So -- the bottom line to this mess of a response is -- both options have their own problems, but both can be made to work.
 
Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions, it is very helpful to make a decision with all this great feedback. Barry the videos complement the notes and add lots of value to this thread.

At the end, its how the camera is used. I was worry to see some footage online of the HMC150 vs. 7D, but probably that person who filmed it didn't know how to use the camera correctly. As AGmedia stated,the 7d has a less learning curve and just a little light can make it look great.

I will used the HMC150 for the footage, as the camera is free for me to use and get a letus ultimate on ebay or used redrock micro M2, then sell it after project is done. Right lighting is the key. Once, again, thanks for all this great feedback

Barry_Green said:
EDIT: this was shot on an HPX170, which is the same chips, the same lens, basically the same camera as the HMC150. We used a Letus Ultimate adapter. It's not 100% exactly what you'd get from an HMC150, but I dare say that it would be a rare person who would be able to tell the difference.
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Do you remember the settings you use in the HPX170 video that can be replicated in the HMC150?
 
i use them both at the same time. 7D has better looking video. I would go 5d2 as well, or AF100. resolution is iffy on the HMC, and dont take me wrong, I love mine, it has made
me a lot of money. An EX1 wouldn't be bad either. You could buy a T21 and some fast primes for about 2K, then use the rest of your money for audio and lighting.
 
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