FCP Glitch ? Random and unexplainable frame rates?

[Mitch_Ives]

FCP has a fundamental conflict (right now) which will prevent it from ever embracing that workflow, until they pluck their heads out of their collective rumps and realize that native MXF files on the timeline is a GOOD thing, not a "bad thing." So far they have refused to do that, instead demanding that you convert your files to Quicktimes, saying stuff like "why would we want to go to an inferior format?" That attitude helps no one. (and, er, you allow .AVI files on the timeline already, so why not MXF?)

I agree with the concept of native MXF support, assuming there aren't any unacceptable compromises. If it means giving up the QT advantage and using the kind of formats PC's frequently have to use, then I'm not interested. My favorite "red-herring" was all the PC editing systems saying "we have realtime support for HDV... no rendering needed". The compromise was going to an intermediate codec, which sucked and missed the whole point of native editing. The Matrox Axio makes similar claims, but it's quality leaves something to be desired, and to do any interesting things in PremierePro, means you're back to rendering. If native MXF involves any compromises like that, then I'd pass.

In any event, it's important to clarify that FCP doesn't convert the MXF files, it just puts a QT wrapper on it... no conversion or processing of the video file is done. This isn't a new concept, as many PC editing systems do the same thing with AVI wrappers when editing many different formats. I know that you know this Barry, but I didn't want any new people getting confused...

 

[Mitch_Ives]

Filmstox you get my whole point about the longer you stay in the Panasonic World the better your chances you won't have any corrupted footage....They really made a nifty (did I just say nifty??) product in the P2 store. The whole laptop in the field for my situation and I am sure a ton of people is not ideal. I just want to remove any 3rd party out of the equation when it comes to getting the footage off the card. I like to think that Panasonic would embrace these sentiments as it would alleviate any doubts about P2 and its future in production. Not to mention it would be a real money maker....for anyone with this type of production work it would be just as important as the camera itself.

I agree on the laptop/P2 Store issue. I started out using a laptop in the field... it was a Mac G4 and we had zero issues with that approach. I eventually discovered that we needed a P2 Store because in some cases, the laptop approach wasn't feasible. Using a P2 Store and three 8GB cards, I shot non-stop for 2 hours... swapping cards to the P2 Store, reformatting and continuing. I did this working alone... because it wasn't a complicated shoot. I wouldn't try to operate the camera and work with the laptop by myself... under any circumstances...

 

[Barry_Green]

I know they have P2 Card readers out there that have 5 slots....but if you are saying that P2 footage was never to be offloaded how in the heck are you supposed to archive the project.

Of course you're supposed to archive. But in an ideal world, that'd be done after the project is done.

I think one of the many uses of P2 technology is that you can edit straight from the cards...But that is hardly the only way Panasonic intended this to be used otherwise why would they have created the P2 store.

P2 Store is a temporary/interim device to "tide us over" until the cards are big enough.

(I can't realistically have laptop strapped to my waist)

Right, but you can't do that with a P2 Store either, really.

OK maybe the last thing is a bit over the top but it really take that AG-HP10 player recorder stick a larger capacity HD in there and its settled.....no need for anything else.....heck you don't even have to waste time and money in R&D trying to come up with larger capcity cards.

When I first saw that product, I did have to kind of ask them "er, WHO do you think's gonna buy this?" I mean, I can see that an HD-SDI house might want it as a "bridge product", bringing P2 data into an HD-SDI workflow, but other than that, it seems like exactly what was said earlier: an HVX minus the lens. And if you're gonna spend $4,000 for this, why not $5000 for another HVX?

Yes there's a hole in the workflow right now -- large amounts of footage being shot for archival (such as weddings or events). Yes a 250GB P2 Store would go a long, long way towards solving that. But no, nobody'll even acknowledge that they're even thinking about such a product; instead all I get is "if you need long recording, go with the FireStore."

As card capacity grows, the relevance of a 60GB P2 Store shrinks. This May when 16GB cards hit, that means I can offload three cards? Wow. Or at the end of the year when 32GB cards are out, I can offload one card? I mean, sorry, no, this isn't the product we really need. Works great for today (overpriced or not) but it's going to lose relevancy as the cards grow.

Just a "Smart P2 Store"

P2 Store More? I dunno. But I'll tell you what, I've been using a WinXP laptop since the first day I got an HVX, and I've never needed or wanted a P2 Store or any "More Store" or anything like that. It really is a nearly perfect solution.

I'd really like to see them add AVC-HD to a future HVX250 or something like that; I think that would be phenomenal. You could store approximately HDV-caliber footage at a rate of 12x as much footage per card, or XDCAM-HD-caliber footage at 4x as much footage per card. Wouldn't be DVCPRO-HD anymore, and you'd have to deal with the complexities of long-GOP, but to get 4 to 12x as much footage on your existing cards (or P2 Store) would help a lot of folks out.

 

[Mitch_Ives]

Right, but you can't do that with a P2 Store either, really.

Actually, I use the PortBrace case and either hang it on the tripod or carry it with me... and yes I have run tests with it on my waist and no problems so far... even though I'd advise not doing that unless it's really necessary.

When I first saw that product, I did have to kind of ask them "er, WHO do you think's gonna buy this?"

I said that too... but like an iPod, after I got it I was wondering how I got along without it.

Yes there's a hole in the workflow right now -- large amounts of footage being shot for archival (such as weddings or events). Yes a 250GB P2 Store would go a long, long way towards solving that. But no, nobody'll even acknowledge that they're even thinking about such a product; instead all I get is "if you need long recording, go with the FireStore."

They claim that they are limited to the Military spec Hard Drives, which they say is still at 60GB. I'm not sure I buy into that though...

As card capacity grows, the relevance of a 60GB P2 Store shrinks. This May when 16GB cards hit, that means I can offload three cards? Wow. Or at the end of the year when 32GB cards are out, I can offload one card? I mean, sorry, no, this isn't the product we really need. Works great for today (overpriced or not) but it's going to lose relevancy as the cards grow.

No question... with some 32GB cards I wouldn't need to offload until the end of the day, which means the laptop could work...

I'd really like to see them add AVC-HD to a future HVX250 or something like that; I think that would be phenomenal. You could store approximately HDV-caliber footage at a rate of 12x as much footage per card, or XDCAM-HD-caliber footage at 4x as much footage per card. Wouldn't be DVCPRO-HD anymore, and you'd have to deal with the complexities of long-GOP, but to get 4 to 12x as much footage on your existing cards (or P2 Store) would help a lot of folks out.

Oh yeah... Barry for President!

 

[jcgardiner]

I agree Barry Panasonic at this stage in the game will probably never update the P2 Store in May it will be almost rendered useless...My rant probably would have made more sense 6-8 months ago...With the 16 GB almost upon us and hopefully they will cost the same as or less than the 8GB today we are getting closer to the goal of not having to offload in the field. When this day arrives I think we will all breath easier. But I still contend that Panasonic should have planned this out a bit better.

 

[bbalser]

My favorite "red-herring" was all the PC editing systems saying "we have realtime support for HDV... no rendering needed". The compromise was going to an intermediate codec, which sucked and missed the whole point of native editing.

What is the deal with Native editing? Native HDV editing SUCKS. The ICs make it faster and easier, thus I'm very greatful they exist.

I don't get the Navtive for Native sake, when the Native format itself requires top of the line hardware to get all that RT playback.

 

[David Saraceno]

The editing for the most part is native.

The real time is spent in conforming HDV for export.

 

[Barry_Green]

What is the deal with Native editing? Native HDV editing SUCKS.

Well, yeah. But that's HDV. I was talking about native DVCPRO-HD editing. When you can get three streams played back off the internal hard disk, with transitions in-between, on a bottom-of-the-line G5 Dual 2.0, full-screen, full-res... why would you want to go to an intermediate codec, and wait while files are converted, and take up extra drive space?

Whenever you have a choice, assuming all other things are at least equal, native editing is better than converted. And with the HVX/P2 system, it's even more desirable because you shouldn't have to convert files. That's what I was getting at.

Let me put it this way: go out in the field and shoot a long doc, offloading cards to a hard drive. Fill up a 500GB hard disk with cards. Then come back to your editing station and plug that drive in. Would you rather:
a) start editing

or

a) buy another 500GB hard disk, and start the conversion process, convert every one of your files from MXF to Quicktime, and wait the better part of a day as it does it, before you can start editing?

I'd pick a).

 

[bbalser]

I use the Firestore, off load to my editing drive, it's not in any way a problem for me. I no longer do file converstions, as I'm recording QT on the FS. Even before, it was not a problem, and was much faster than capturing tape.

The real world, when compared to an ideal world, will always suck.

It'd be nice to be able to edit the P2 files as is, I agree. But the QT re-wrap, I just don't see it as evil, or bad in any way.

Let's see, Apple out right bought Final Touch. And they bought a ton of licensing with the company that develops MXF (German, if memory serves, which it normally doesn't). I think we'll see everyones wishes come true at NAB when FCP 6 comes out.

BTW, I do not consider a QuickTime DVCPRO-HD file an Intermediate Codec. And personally, I don't see the need to off-line when using DVCPRO-HD. It's just a really nice codec all around, no matter who's wrapping paper you put on it.

 

[Dan Montgomery]

Nothing could be further from the truth. OS X is UNIX, Next wasn't, the two have nothing in common.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEXTSTEP Ben, it's a great read and points out why Apple purchased NEXTSTEP the Next Computer OS and points out it's "UNIX LIKE" OS... programming for OSX is indeed "Objective C" and follows little of the modern conventions comp scis learn in school today...think left-handed Unix. heh.