HPX250: Fast Motion AVCIntra-100 Footage - 1080/30pN - Football

David Saraceno

David Saraceno

Moderator
Staff member
1080/30pN AVCINTRA-100

Manual focus with focus assist used extensively.

Manual iris due to intermittent sun, clouds, and shade.

Edited in Final Cut Pro

Locked down; some field side, and some from above stands.


Just a variety of clips
 
Looks really nice David... I just ordered my HPX250 today partially because I got a gig to shoot the half time show at a Bowl game and did not think my HVX200 would suffice. I do plan to use it though and I hope that the 250 does not embarrass the 200 so much that I can't cut them together.... But if it does.... Then I'll understand and will retire the 200 to a unglamorous life as a fancy card reader...
Have you shot 720PN with the 250? Have you experienced any aliasing problems? What's your summary of the HPX250 so far? Thanks so much for posting your clips. I will post some myself soon:happy:
 
We shot an interview on Friday with the 250 at 720/30pN.

We lit the interview pretty well, and footage looked very, very good.

We do shoot sports from time to time and we feel the 250's auto focus is slower than our 170's even at optimal settings.

Love the cam. We watched the rest of the footage you guys saw in the YT sample out HDMI to a Panasonic 60" plasma this afternoon and it is startling good.

I wish I could have set the iris, and stuck to it for the whole game, but the clouds and sun were way too intermittent.

Nice controls, well balanced, LCD is a huge, huge improvement, and great shooting modes.
 
Thanks David I really appreciate your feedback. Can't wait to try out the cam! Would you recommend 30 fps for football? That's what I was thinking would capture the motion best for my shoot.
 
That really depends on how the footage will be used. You can't do 30P on Blu-Ray for example. If you are shooting for the web 30P will work fine, but 60P would be even better, but you would be limited to 720P on the HPX250.
 
Thanks for your input THoff. The client wants a standard DVD and web... Standard DVDs like 24P right? Is that the deal with Blu-Ray as well? What are the advantages of 60P? I'm thinking of shooting 720P because I will be using other Panasonic cameras a couple of HVX200s and a HVX170. Should I shoot progressive? Normally I have shot 24PN on my HVX200 and that has worked great for web and dvd's, but I don't want a lot of jumpy pans of the action so that is why I was thinking 30 or 60... I have not shot a lot of sports...
 
Thank you David for sharing this with us :) As a UK member i normally stick to 1080 25pn but after seeing how smooth your footage looked i think i might starting using 30pn as well. As most of what i do is only for the web the extra smoothness and lesser amount of judder would be ideal. I think I was stuck in the old NTSC/PAL mindset from years ago, after trying out 30pn last night i cant believe i havent tried it before lol.
 
Somewhereinthewoods said:
Thanks for your input THoff. The client wants a standard DVD and web... Standard DVDs like 24P right? Is that the deal with Blu-Ray as well?
Click to expand...
Assuming both the DVD player and display support progressive scan, then 24p will be supported, 2:3 pulldown will be applied if they do not have progressive scan. Blu-ray works natively with the following formats:

(from wikipedia)

High-definition video may be stored on BD-ROMs with up to 1920×1080 pixel resolution at up to 59.94 fields per second, if interlaced. Alternatively, progressive scan can go up to 1920×1080 pixel resolution at 24 frames per second, or up to 1280x720 at up to 59.94 frames per second:

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1920×1080[/TD]
[TD]29.97-i[/TD]
[TD]16:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1920×1080[/TD]
[TD]25-i[/TD]
[TD]16:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1920×1080[/TD]
[TD]24-p[/TD]
[TD]16:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1920×1080[/TD]
[TD]23.976-p[/TD]
[TD]16:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1440×1080[/TD]
[TD]29.97-i[/TD]
[TD]16:9 (anamorphic)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1440×1080[/TD]
[TD]25-i[/TD]
[TD]16:9 (anamorphic)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1440×1080[/TD]
[TD]24-p[/TD]
[TD]16:9 (anamorphic)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1440×1080[/TD]
[TD]23.976-p[/TD]
[TD]16:9 (anamorphic)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1280×720[/TD]
[TD]59.94-p[/TD]
[TD]16:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1280×720[/TD]
[TD]50-p[/TD]
[TD]16:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1280×720[/TD]
[TD]24-p[/TD]
[TD]16:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1280×720[/TD]
[TD]23.976-p[/TD]
[TD]16:9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]720×480[/TD]
[TD]29.97-i[/TD]
[TD]4:3/16:9 (anamorphic)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]720×576[/TD]
[TD]25-i[/TD]
[TD]4:3/16:9 (anamorphic)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]





Yup, that's right, Blu-rays actually don't support faster frame rates than 1920x1080 @ 24p... at least not yet. (In the future Blu-ray discs will support up to 4k resolution, no idea about frame rates)

What are the advantages of 60P? I'm thinking of shooting 720P because I will be using other Panasonic cameras a couple of HVX200s and a HVX170. Should I shoot progressive?
Click to expand...

The disadvantage of shooting faster frame rates* and using faster shutter speeds is that the image will get darker. Going from 30p to 60p for example, you lose a stop of light sensitivity and vice-versa. Setting the shutter to 1/120th at 60p will suck even more light, but you'll get a smooth and crisp image.

*Note: A faster frame rate on it's own doesn't darken the image, however, cameras are usually set up to use a shutter speed equal to the frame rate, so by doubling the frame rate you also double the shutter speed, unless it's set to a specific amount. A 180deg shutter sets the shutter to 2x the frame rate (1/60th for 30fps, for example)

Normally I have shot 24PN on my HVX200 and that has worked great for web and dvd's, but I don't want a lot of jumpy pans of the action so that is why I was thinking 30 or 60... I have not shot a lot of sports...
Click to expand...

You really don't want to go slower than 30p for sports, unless you're shooting a film about sports, but do set the shutter speed high, like 1/120th or more to get sharper footage. 1080p distribution is still fairly limited, so 720 isn't a bad idea depending on how people are going to get to see it, most cameras are overkill for online video.
 
Last edited:
IIRC, many sports broadcast networks (ESPN, Fox Sports, ABC Sports, for example) use 720p60 because it smooths out fast action; 60p footage is also good for pulling clean slo-mo's.

Whatever the reason, that's what I mostly use for shooting action events.
 
Kolor-Pikker said:
Blu-rays actually don't support faster frame rates than 1920x1080 @ 24p... at least not yet. (In the future Blu-ray discs will support up to 4k resolution, no idea about frame rates)
Click to expand...

I don't think you'll ever see 4k on Blu-ray. By the time that becomes a home video format, I don't think optical discs will exist, plus Blu-ray disc capacity seems really low for 4k...unless somehow we have that BD-X format as a standard (which holds about 100GB per disc).
 
Gary Huff said:
I don't think you'll ever see 4k on Blu-ray. By the time that becomes a home video format, I don't think optical discs will exist, plus Blu-ray disc capacity seems really low for 4k...unless somehow we have that BD-X format as a standard (which holds about 100GB per disc).
Click to expand...
Again, from wiki:

Although the Blu-ray Disc specification has been finalized, engineers continue to work on advancing the technology. Quad-layer (100 GB) discs have been demonstrated on a drive with modified optics[SUP][149][/SUP] and standard unaltered optics.[SUP][150][/SUP] Hitachi stated that such a disc could be used to store 7 hours of 32 Mbit/s video (HDTV) or 3 hours and 30 minutes of 64 Mbit/s video (Cinema 4K). In August 2006, TDK announced that they have created a working experimental Blu-ray Disc capable of holding 200 GB of data on a single side, using six 33 GB data layers.[SUP][151][/SUP]

...

At CES 2009, Panasonic unveiled the DMP-B15, the first portable Blu-ray Disc player, and Sharp introduced the LC-BD60U and LC-BD80U series, the first LCD HDTVs with integrated Blu-ray Disc players. Sharp has also announced that they will sell HDTVs with integrated Blu-ray Disc recorders in the United States by the end of 2009. Set-top box recorders are not being sold in the U.S. due to fears of piracy. However, personal computers with Blu-ray recorder drives are available.
On January 1, 2010, Sony, in association with Panasonic, announced plans to increase the storage capacity on their Blu-ray Discs from 25GB to 33.4 GB via a technology called i-MLSE (Maximum likelihood Sequence Estimation). The higher-capacity discs, according to Sony, will be readable on current Blu-ray Disc players with a firmware upgrade. No date has been set to include the increased space, but according to Blu-ray.com "it will likely happen sometime later this year."[SUP][158][/SUP]

On July 20, 2010, the research team of Sony and Japanese Tohoku University announced the joint development of a blue-violet laser,[SUP][159][/SUP] which will help in creating Blu-ray discs with a capacity of 1 TB (dual layer).

Things are moving along rather nicely, methinks. The projected date for 1TB blu-rays is 2013.
 
David Saraceno said:
1080/30pN AVCINTRA-100

Manual focus with focus assist used extensively.

Manual iris due to intermittent sun, clouds, and shade.

Edited in Final Cut Pro

Locked down; some field side, and some from above stands.


Just a variety of clips
Click to expand...
Many thanks for sharing it, David.
30p is excellent for motion smoothness, while still preserving a sort of cinematic "flavour".
Chroma is definitely neutral, not aggressive or oversaturated, with a slightly cold mood in cloudy moments, clearly.

I notice a lot of motion blur within frames, did you set 1/30 sec shutter (or 359.5d)?
 
Shutter at 1/60th would have been better, IMO, or 720/60P, no shutter. I've been finding that the 250 in Cine D with Knee at Low is doing a good job of holding detail in highlights like white shirts, it's the closest to Film-Rec gamma I've found in a Panasonic palmcorder.
 
Hey Jeff, thanks for the suggestions, and I'll give them try soon. Actually, I had issues with iris all day, and 1/60 might have assisted.

I also try the Cinema D settings you suggested

BTW, I grew up down the road from you in Cupertino.

best
 
yes shutter off on the hpx250 and 3xx series means the shutter is the same as the frame rate ie 25pn 25th/sec etc. On my camera menu i toggled the shutter display to degrees so when i put shutter on, my viewfinder says 180 deg. If david had been running at 60th on 30pn it would have sharpened up the image a little and removed some of the softness to the movement.

Normally when shooting progressive you run 180deg shutter to maximise sharpness/minimise blur, unless there is either a creative need for a differant shutter speed or need for more light :)
 
Garion said:
yes shutter off on the hpx250 and 3xx series means the shutter is the same as the frame rate ie 25pn 25th/sec etc. On my camera menu i toggled the shutter display to degrees so when i put shutter on, my viewfinder says 180 deg. If david had been running at 60th on 30pn it would have sharpened up the image a little and removed some of the softness to the movement.

Normally when shooting progressive you run 180deg shutter to maximise sharpness/minimise blur, unless there is either a creative need for a differant shutter speed or need for more light :)
Click to expand...

Yes, and I've been using 220deg shutter lately, finding it to be slightly more filmic and allowing a bit more light vs. 180deg. Also, using degrees vs. fractional shutter speeds keeps a constant aperture when ramping frame rates in our HPX2700.
 
This is one big difference between the HPX250 and any prior Panasonic handheld, from the DVX100 through the HVX, HPX, HMC and AC lines. In all those handhelds, "shutter off" wasn't really shutter=off. It was 'default shutter speed', which, in this case, would have been 1/60th. But on the HPX250, shutter off = true shutter off, meaning there is no shutter employed at all, and therefore the sensor is always gathering light, and so the effective shutter speed becomes the reciprocal of the frame rate, so in 1080/30p the "shutter off" shutter speed would be 1/30th, rather than the 1/60th an HVX/HPX170/HMC user would expect.
 
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