F65: F65... Well, so much for that idea.

Grug

Grug

Veteran
Well I've pondering the possibilities of a myriad of new (to me) cameras to keep my pictures warm at night. And the F65 had been there on my list for some time.

We all know that the form factor is a bit awkward, but the weight is no worse than an Alexa. And the sheer imaging grunt of the F65 is extraordinary. The mirror shutter is awesome (I'm sick of jello effects - small as they might be with most current cameras), the four separate built-in NDs? Brilliant. The '8k' (i.e. 6k) sensor? Seems to deliver the crispest 4k image of any camera on the market. The latitude? Nice and wide. The colour science? Now that Sony have Sgamut3.cine, it's beautiful and easy to work with.

And then you find some good deals on used camera bodies and start to get excited, so you decide to get into the nitty gritty and you watch these:



And you get about half-way through and have to turn the videos off, because you know that (at best) you get to have a DIT on set for maybe one out of every twenty shoots that you do - and it's VERY apparent that the workflow would be a nightmare without a DIT available to spend the entirety of their days working on it...

What in god's name were Sony thinking?!

:badputer:


So that's put paid to that idea. What camera do I get now? A used Alexa (which people will probably start complaining about for not being '4k')? A Varicam LT (which seems to have some moire issues, and puts me back in rolling-shutter land)? I dunno what to do.
 
Hi Grug,

Those are valid concerns.

I've used the F65 for about 5 paying gigs so far...so I still don't have as much mileage with the system. However, my experience with the SRPC4 has been that once I set it up in the beginning of the day (SRPC4/laptop/hard-drive), it is not much different than offloading media through a card reader and a check-sum software...a very secure and fast one, at that. I have a 1tB blue card and a 256GB black card so while I'm offloading one card, I'm shooting with another and the ratio seems to work out...although I have my eye on a 500GB Black card as well.

Setting up an IP connection between devices can seem like a bit of a pain at first, but once you get the hang of it (or your settings are saved), it is quite painless. Of course, that is only my opinion and I can definitely see how others may disagree on that front. This is not meant to convince you to go the way of the F65 (which can be hard to justify in today's market), just thought I'd chime in from personal experience. I too went through those videos over and over but when I started using the SRPC4, I still have not had a DIT on set yet. anyone can click all the files, select them and import. I usually just show an assistant how to do it, test them once or twice, then I have them take a picture of the screen showing a successful transfer to show me when they return the card. Or I just do it myself and it is very quick. I have not had producers complain about this yet. In fact, they have actually liked that I can load LUTs and export proxies or dailies for them simultaneously. This way at lunch time they can be looking over that morning's shoot and their laptops, or whatever.

However, all things aside, there are cameras out there that are much lighter and and offer more convenience in terms of more producer friendly ProRes, less expensive media, great images and even commercial hype! :)

Assuming, if you were considering an F65, that you want a cinema rig for scripted narrative and commercial work, what are the front-runners for you at the moment?

If rolling shutter is a deal breaker, the Red system has ther motion mount which, as I'm sure you ready know, is like a LCD shutter. I haven't used it myself and from reading online it has mixed reviews. But certainly some happy customers out there and I'm curious to try. But it comes with some light loss. Of course, you could also go for the Alexa Studio with spinning shutter. Most productions seem to be pretty happy with that, although moving forward and 4k is something to consider. It's a gamble, I suppose. Then there is the F55, which is an interesting compromise all around (in a good way in my opinion).

If some rolling shutter is ok, that opens it up to many other options. Does the Varicam 35 have the moire issues that you've noticed on the LT? I personally have not kept up too much.

In any case, best of luck with your new decision and keep us posted!
 
I think in general you have to remember that if its a digital cinema camera, it is intended to be used with a camera crew (1st AC, 2nd AC, loader etc). I only really put up with the red system if I'm shooting as close to uncompressed as the budget allows, and that always means some kind of DIT/camera assistant. Half the reason I nabed an F35 was so I could have nice image quality with global shutter but running off (relatively) cheap SSDs.

The F55 may be the best compromise system out there honestly. Im not a fan of it, but it really is a dual purpose cinema/ENG camera that'll get you raw 4k if ya need it (with global shutter to boot). If what you need most is a workhorse rig, that might be your best bet. That, or find a way to get a boat load of SR mags
 
Thanks Rafael, appreciate hearing your experience with it.

95% of the time I have an AC or two, but a DIT or a data wrangler are exceptionally rare for me. And although I'd probably trust my regular ACs with the setup once I'd thoroughly trained them up on it. I just can't see it being possible to have people work a wrangling setup that complicated, if they have to learn it on the day (and under the usual pressures of being on set), and since I don't always get to use my go-to people. That's a SERIOUS concern.

A USB3 card reader, a laptop and a copy of Shotput Pro or Catalyst Browse I can trust to most people - a portable server that requires ethernet and SATA connections, and adjusting the computer's IP settings just to connect to it via web-browser? I just can't see that being manageable on most of the sets I'm on without a competent, professional DIT (or a dedicated wrangler at the very least).

I also can't really see it being possible for me to setup the data wrangling station myself, I just don't know where I'd possibly find the time on set (I'll admit that might be me just being difficult because I usually have people to do that for me, but it's a genuine concern). And I also don't (and never have) owned a laptop, so that also gets in the way.

Also I don't know what that 'commercial hype' thing you mentioned is (I've only owned Sony cameras so far), but it sure does sound nice! :P

All the cameras are good these days, so it shouldn't be such a hard decision, but I've decided the middle ground is a bad place to be financially. So it's either get a top-end camera, or go super cheap and obsolete. And just let production pay for it when they want the shiny new things.

I'll probably be getting something like an F3 anyway (for those occasional solo gigs where I don't get an AC) since they're so cheap, so I'm not so fussed about getting a do-it-all camera like the F5 again. But I want something with the chops to shoot narrative without compromise.
 
bgundu said:
Hence why Redcode is RED's saving grace.
Click to expand...

Less Redcode (wonderful as it is), and more the simplicity of getting it off the cards and onto a harddrive. Red have made it easy. Arri made it easy. Hell, Sony made it easy with the F5(5)... they just came to the 'making it easy' party a little too late.

I guess coming from HDCAM-SR tapes they just couldn't let go of the complexity when they were designing the F65.

It's strange because operating the camera is really simple, they've made a nice, intuitive side panel to control the camera - if only that design philosophy had made out to the camera's rear end!
 
Haha. Yeah, Sony doesn't have quite the "commercial hype" with producers and clients as Arri or Red. That's a generalization, of course. :)

The f3 is a solid camera, specially considering the upgrades for the price. Also allows to work cheaper without cutting into your profits since you will likely pay very little for it.

As as far as the SRPC 4 goes, you choose the IP address for the unit and a computer/laptop once, and you can take that anywhere without changing it. Once it's saved, you don't have to repeat the process. And you can just get a cheap laptop to use with it and use an esata hard drive connected straight to the SRPC4, that bypasses the laptop for fastest write speeds. So set it once and done. Make a bookmark of the IP address on your browser and set that to your home page once you open the browser, and you have just about automatic connection. I'm not saying this to convince you of anything. I simply want to demistify the process in case there is any confusion. Because I have already set up the connection between my computer and the SRPC4, I trust just about anyone to use it. But then again, I always set it up. My set up is a backpack with srpc4, laptop and Rosco 1tb esata SSD. But if you do t have time to set it up on location then that might become more tricky since most people are not familiar with this unit. Also, you don't have to use the SRPC4. You can use Sonys new card reader used with the F55 r5. The SR-D1. This is just plug in, transfer with your favorite check sum software. Any assistant or PA should be able to do this.

Again, just sharing, in case it may be helpful.

Of course, an F35 would also be a great choice. So would an F3. But if you are looking to do some 4k capture in scripted narrative sets or commercial sets, then those two cameras have that as a disadvantage.
Again, best of luck!
 
F65 post workflow definitely not designed for the one-man-band same as arguably the F35 isn't from an operator stand point. It's arguable I guess.

I suppose if I could get an F65 for basement bargain prices, like $20k USD and it would be my "primary" camera I might go for it. But even then I feel like the owner operator is always faced with "owning the wrong camera" at some point or another so with the F65 I feel like I'd have to own a 2nd camera, something light, cheap, and that doesn't impose any crazy post workflows… and with today's camera pickings that probably isn't hard.. maybe an F65 and FS5? Or RED Dragon and FS7… ?

There's also a part of me where man you really don't want to own any camera, and want to work to a point where you can just walk on set and have rented whatever camera and equipment you ordered.

A guy can dream can't he?

P.S. I have a lead on a F65 deal in the UK if you're interested to hear more about it….
 
abreu-canedo said:
. You can use Sonys new card reader used with the F55 r5. The SR-D1. This is just plug in, transfer with your favorite check sum software. Any assistant or PA should be able to do this.
Click to expand...

Oh wow... problem solved, that fixes everything, crisis averted. Why haven't Sony shouted the SR-D1's existence from the heavens? Everyone who might be considering the camera should know about it.

Dennis, you can shoot me through that lead of yours now thanks - the big Sony is back in the race! :p
 
Surf it Mike said:
I like the F65 a lot ...but not so sure on $2.5k US for a card reader.
Click to expand...

I'd say that, realistically, that $2500 card reader is the ONLY way any of us mere mortals can put the camera to use. So you've just got to factor it into your purchase price.

Without it the camera's just not accessible enough.
 
I have an SRPC4 and two SRD1s. It really is nice to have both unit types. The SRPC4 is great to have on set to view clips as they come off the camera. The SRD1s are great for ease of use. They really help bring the F65 workflow up to par with more modern camera systems. If I had a choice of only one unit, I would go with the SRD1 in a heartbeat. With a 10GBe card installed the SRPC4 is slightly faster, but at the end of the day the SRD1 setup is so much simpler and easier that the slightly slower transfer speeds are acceptable.
 
Grug said:
What in god's name were Sony thinking?!

:badputer:
Click to expand...

Agreed, very sad Sony did this, otherwise they might have had a hit on their hands! If only it was much more workflow friendly.

Grug said:
So that's put paid to that idea. What camera do I get now? A used Alexa (which people will probably start complaining about for not being '4k')? A Varicam LT (which seems to have some moire issues, and puts me back in rolling-shutter land)? I dunno what to do.
Click to expand...

If rolling shutter is a deal breaker for you then keep your eye out for reviews of the Kinefinity Terra 5K in June, as it will have a global shutter and ProRes (plus has a very nifty form factor which I love the look of!).
 
Grug said:
... And you get about half-way through and have to turn the videos off, because you know that (at best) you get to have a DIT on set for maybe one out of every twenty shoots that you do - and it's VERY apparent that the workflow would be a nightmare without a DIT available to spend the entirety of their days working on it...

What in god's name were Sony thinking?! ...
Click to expand...
"Let's make the best camera we can to be used on the high end productions. Jibs, cranes, motion arms. A live data wrangler. We think Vito Storaro can afford to hire several. And a colorist to boot".

To use a car analogy.

Q: Dear Mercedes Benz, how am I supposed to drive your new twenty foot Maybach?

A: Dear customer, please, hire a driver.
 
DLD said:
"Let's make the best camera we can to be used on the high end productions. Jibs, cranes, motion arms. A live data wrangler. We think Vito Storaro can afford to hire several. And a colorist to boot".

To use a car analogy.

Q: Dear Mercedes Benz, how am I supposed to drive your new twenty foot Maybach?

A: Dear customer, please, hire a driver.
Click to expand...

That was obviously the case when the camera came out, but now that Rafael has made us aware of the SR-D1, we know that the F65 can be no more complicated workflow-wise than any other camera out there. The SR-D1 makes it plug and play like everything else (thank god!).

I don't think it can record proxies to accompany the raw files to editorial like the F5(5) do so nicely. But if I do get one, I'll use my Odyssey 7Q as the onboard monitor for my ACs, and that'll take care of that for me.
 
Grug said:
That was obviously the case when the camera came out, but now that Rafael has made us aware of the SR-D1, we know that the F65 can be no more complicated workflow-wise than any other camera out there. The SR-D1 makes it plug and play like everything else (thank god!)...
Click to expand...
Sony released F65 in the late summer 2011. It looks like the card reader was first announced at the NAB'12 and then shipped by July, 2012, a little less than a year later.

Here's another Abel Cine clip from 'that era". Andy's working with SRD1 and 6:1 Raw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq21YQHdpis
 
DLD said:
Sony released F65 in the late summer 2011. It looks like the card reader was first announced at the NAB'12 and then shipped by July, 2012, a little less than a year later.

Here's another Abel Cine clip from 'that era". Andy's working with SRD1 and 6:1 Raw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq21YQHdpis
Click to expand...

The F65 was released in January of 2012.
My uncle the late Vilmos Zsigmond was amongst the first people to test/review the production ready version of the f65 in Jan of 2012.
 
Here is the F65 I saw in September of 2011 at a Canadian Society of Cinematographers meeting. Dealer/Sony was looking for preorders before December 2011 and with that came a small discount. Guess the release date is subjective.

Although I didn't get to test the camera and this was more just a presentation, I did a small write up about my impressions and what I learned that day on my non-3rd-party-ads-or-force-you-to-click-BHPhotoVideo-links-for-pennies blog: http://www.hingsberg.com/index.php/2011/09/sony-f65-sneak-peak-at-2011-csc/

F65-at-CSC.jpg
 
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