F55: F5 & FS7: LUT's locked out of color controls

a decent gpu is plenty good enough for dealing with red files these days and no transcoding necessary. Just give the a redcine preset for the clips.

Likewise on an A7s and FS700 shoot I was on the other day I just exported 2 luts via filmconvert which when applied to their footage on a timeline will match up the two cams. Literally 5mins work and saves them a ton.
 
Lenilenapi said:
Actually I don't think Sony came up with Slog for broadcast at all. I think it was for what they perceive as "high end film-like production" But that's where I suspect they don't understand how typical DP's work. RED and Alexa were way ahead on that immediately.

Don't get what you mean by a black tent unless you're talking about exteriors -
Sure - I don't always have a monitor outside - though if they the show warrants production value I've used a tent plenty of times.
Generally exteriors are more amendable to a preset approach to color though.
I'm thinking about lit interiors.

"I've been in this business 30 years,
Good and bad - it might be time to think through your workflows."

Haha :) Spoken like a true youngster. Never discount the value of experience though.
Most of us grey-heads are always rethinking our workflows - just don't want them to get worse.
That's what we're doing here I hope.
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You are right Sony came up with Slog to fit 10+stops into the 7stop 709 colour space - entirely for cinema - most of their thought are 'broadcast' but Slog is not - it is designed to be post produced by an experienced team.

'Workflows' - we all need to think our workflows because this bit of the industry seems to have fallen over..

- you get a bunch of people handing off footage that gets mangled by muppets
-another bunch pre-grading and 80% of the time not charging for that
- you get another bunch who get it right in camera.. but those people must shoot to 7stop and that means they are heavy footprint shooters gelling windows, and using a pile of lights - those people are not fully exploiting the new cameras flexible wide DR files - those people are inefficient on set

So no-one has a decent workflow right now (apart from that 20%)

And that is a problem for all of us to look at, Len, I'm not trying to have an internet battle with you!

Ive tried to get a one to one at Sony in Pinewood where I will simply ask them to use the camera with me as the director - I then hoped they could take this right through post.. because Im very unconvinced by Sony - which is why I didn't buy an F5.

You are an old school 'dump and run' shooter - doubtless from a tape background where you shoot (getting it right in camera- a great skill) hand over your tapes and hit the bar.. golden days!

If that is how you want to continue I dont see why you dont avoid Slog and go to a Cine profile and 'paint' the camera to have all the settings you want - just like people used Sony cameras for years?

Avoid the new fangled settings completely - you don't need them!
 
I make no difference between projects but sometimes I do hand over untreated footage to a client that I know will make it look good without me. They are few. The thing is I know it's difficult to make s-log look good if you don't know what you're doing and I hate when my footage doesn't look as good as I want.

In my experience this way of providing graded footage makes it much easier for clients so it's a win win situation. I learned that clients just want things solved so if I can ease their work everybody is happy!
 
Absolutely. Always make it as fast and easy as possible for the person who hires you and the person editing your stuff who'll be sitting next to the person who hires you for days on end, always make it as easy as possible for those people to do their jobs. If it means sticking a readme.txt file with notes and a couple of quick correction luts on a drive with the rushes then do it and they will perceive added value. If it means baking in a solid rec709 look because you know at best the footage is going to get 30 seconds of correction applied to it then do that.
 
morgan_moore said:
they are heavy footprint shooters gelling windows, and using a pile of lights - those people are not fully exploiting the new cameras flexible wide DR files - those people are inefficient on set …...

You are an old school 'dump and run' shooter - doubtless from a tape background where you shoot (getting it right in camera- a great skill) hand over your tapes and hit the bar.. golden days!
Click to expand...

Morgan,
First - We all have different styles of shooting and they all deserve respect here. Moreover I suggest you show more respect for your "old school" elders - you might learn something.

Second - You don't have a clue what your talking about.
I come from a film background well before I shot tape, with at least as wide a DR as anything you use today and I light exactly the same way now as I did then ( hopefully a bit better). Watch a good feature film DP sometime - they use lights, gels, nets and flags and whatever they need to get precisely the look they want - "painting with light" - its an art and it has absolutely nothing to do with 7 stops of DR. Nor does it mean you are inefficient on set.

morgan_moore said:
As for gelling lights - I've never had a good enough monitor to see anything subtle anyway - …. admittedly that doesn't help you match sources - generally I don't have time for that anyway
Click to expand...

I like subtleties. Some people see them and some people don't. I want this camera because it will be more subtle and more like the film I grew up loving not because the wide DR is faster and easier to shoot.

I hope we can just drop it here and get back to the question of how to work with LUT's and Slog.

Lenny
 
Ben,
I agree completely and actually why I'm disappointed that Sony has separated LUT's and white balance & Kelvin controls. I'm intrigued that some of you guys do a grade before giving footage to the client. I've never heard of anyone doing that before, but will ask around now. As for notes and text files - do you find people really read them? I've tried that in the past and just find that they get ignored in the rush of editing. I will occasionally offer to come in and do a free grade on the finished show and that's much appreciated. Usually I'll do it for a client I like and if I think the show is worth it. Generally my grading comes afterwards when I try to put something on my demo reel though.

I am still wondering if other people also find the separation of LUT's and white balance controls a drag.
 
Lenilenapi said:
Morgan,
..just drop it here and get back to the question of how to work with LUT's and Slog.

Lenny
Click to expand...

My understanding is that you want to get it right in camera, you are lucky enough to have the time, tools, skills and resources to do that.

Where I am lost is why you want to go down the Log/Lut route at all.

The Sony, AFAIK, has both standard and cinegammas/hypergammas (as well as Slog) which allow full control of temp/tint/knee/gamma/sharpening/NR etc - the camera can be 'painted' (have all these settings modded and saved as a picture profile) in the same manner as generations of Sony cameras

Once the camera is 'painted' there is no need for a LUT because what you see is what you get and are going to deliver. The footage from the camera is 100% client ready, assuming they can handle the codec.

Those are the modes to use for getting it right in camera.

I don't know why you are not happy with that set of options?

S
 
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I'm not sure what you don't get Morgan and don't think we should pursue this longer.

Log looks better - that's the point. You can't get that look with standard gammas even when you work hard.

Apparently you're not used to working with a good monitor and lighting carefully. If you don't know what your missing then you wouldn't get it.

The RED was designed for feature films and they did a very good job of solving the problem of providing a good in-camera LUT along easy to use color controls for Kelvin and at least some for Tint. You can even paint more with a RED LUT on set if your want. Alexa likewise has Kelvin and green/magenta.

Sony locks you out.

Maybe there is a good technical reason but I haven't heard it yet. I'm not the first person to complain.
 
Lenilenapi said:
Apparently you're not used to working with a good monitor and lighting carefully. If you don't know what your missing then you wouldn't get it.
Click to expand...

That is not too relevant - I do the best I can with the resources I have, DP6monitor and a dedo/redhead/kino kit - Im not working in the HMI/Genny/Flanders monitor level jobs. I also acknowledge the weakness of those tools and know their limits.

For example I would not rely on using the DP6 to see the colour (shift) of a light, I would evaluate an RGB histo from a DSLR instead.


Lenilenapi said:
Log looks better - that's the point. You can't get that look with standard gammas even when you work hard.
Click to expand...

Now this is interesting and constructive.

Im understanding you want to deliver a baked file generated from Slog plus a LUT (I don't do this I try to deliver a grade ready file)

Im aware that STD is too harsh but Im perfectly happy with CineGammas for providing me with a ready to grade look?

Of course you are 'right' that allowing log/lut+controls makes some sense.

The 'technical' reasons are
1) maybe a whole image processing circuit is avoided
2) (non technical) that mixing varied control at points down the chain can create confusion for operator and post team
 
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Lenilenapi said:
Maybe there is a good technical reason but I haven't heard it yet. I'm not the first person to complain.
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I complained too but was laughed out of the Sony F5/F55 forums.

One non-technical and legal reason could simply be due to patents. RED has their method with the separate metadata file and reading Canon's implementation of RAW on Abelcine's site "What exactly is Canon RAW?" you are able to bake in ISO and manual WB to RAW - of course you can change it in post later as well. But with Sony on the other hand, they decided to go with THREE WB presets in their CineEI mode and that's it.

Really, as I see it, and saw it all along, mLUTs are for MONITORING. (the 'M' is for monitoring). So no matter what mode you're in on a camera, you should have the ability to turn on a monitoring LUT and use it.

If I work on a set with director, makeup artist, producer, clients, etc.. even on those small productions people want to see the result on the screen. Makeup artists are trying to perfect their craft, they want to see the lighting on it and how colors render, etc.. Sure no body at that level might suspect we are pulling magic on top of an slog gamma curve so they can simply view the image and that it will probably get graded later and vary greatly - but that's not the point. If the camera has mLUTs then we should be able to use them in any mode plain and simple.

There is absolutely no good argument not to have them available.
 
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starcentral said:
Overall I would like to see LUTs work in custom mode.

I can pick my ISO, dial in WB, enable NR, turn matrix off, and turn LUT on for monitoring by other people on set there to do their job. Period.

I'm with you Lenilenapi !!
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Amen! In the meantime I'm shooting what he is I believe: custom slog3 with dialed in WB, NR at medium, matrix off. Looks great. Externally applied LUT. But I really would like NR in CineEi. Hopefully it's coming.

By the way if you assign gain to a dial you can dial in your index in Cine no problem.
 
As far as I know, Sony's LOG is a fancy stuff. It's not only a gamma curve but
alters the gammas for each color differently. Changing the WB means you'll need
another LUT for each setting. Even more fancy is that the LUT should be different
depending on your gain value (ISO). Changing your gain again means another
LUT.

Let me put Alister Chapmans words here:

There are many issues to using LUT's in custom mode, it's not really practical.
You would have to have a different LUT for every possible gain/gamma combination.
As you have the abitity to change the actual gain in custom mode and as you change the gain
you change the bottom and top end of your gamma response the LUT would only be vaild at
the native ISO, so you may as well just use Cine-EI.
I don't know why you would even want a LUT in custom mode becuase if you add to take away
gain from Slog2/3 you no longer achieve full dynamic range and get either clipped highlights or
blacks, defeating the object of having a log curve. That's why you really should be using EI.


More from the original discussion here: http://community.sony.com/t5/F5-F55/SLog3-SGamut3-Discussion-amp-Info/td-p/255091/page/2

I have to say that I don't REALLY understand the whole SLog science. I'm going to do more tests with FS7 footage
soon and see which workflow I like the best. In the end - only the result is what counts.
I work like Lenny most of the time too. Recorded footage goes to the client and will never be touched by
me. Client knows Rec.709 and "grades" with APP and HDMI computer monitors without knowing anything.
I have to find a way to hand out "ready-to-go" footage that still has a special cinematic look in terms of DR
and highlight handling without the need of fancy grading techniques.
 
Erik, but there is only one LUT working in CineEI mode where there are three WB presets. So the argument of requiring various LUTs is not correct. For monitoring purposes the LUT is the last in the chain to go on the signal. For some projects I've purposely set my white balance to 3200 or 4400 with 5600k lighting and after any LUT is applied the results are as I expect, a shift towards the cool blues in post.

The only technical reason many WB settings would have an issue in CineEI mode is a because of the way Sony records RAW. That is the only technical reason which I've explained a few times already this forum. I believe it to be the only reason and also more recently I suspected possible infringement on patents. So if you are not shooting RAW in CineEI mode and instead chose XAVC or ProRes it should be possible but Sony duped themselves because of their CineEI mode mentality.

As for the statements you quoted from Alister, frankly, they do not make any sense to me. In custom mode after you set the WB, ISO, etc.. for slog gamma and you set your exposure properly - the monitoring LUT simply sits on top of that. Same as it was on the F3, F35, etc.. and the same as it would off an SDI feed to another LUT box for video village.. he seems to be referring to the gain (index mode from CineEI) and applying that to the custom mode - but that is not something anyone has asked for and I believe he has mixed up his facts.
 
I think you're right Dennis.

I have no experience in shooting and handling SLog-footage in post so far.
Just experimenting with my FS7 before using in it serious production.

I even don't know why Sony likes to do it the complicated way. I believe they
want to have a camera that you can use for everything.
I read I can even bake with it. :)

I'm doing tests with the Hypergammas as well. You'll losse a bit of DR, but
still have full control over your output image. Also zebra and WFM work as
I'm used to use them and you can still have noise reduction applied.

In cineEI there's even no use for a real clipping zebra as
SLog3 doesn't even use the full Rec.709 range, whom I'm familiar with.
It clips somewhere before.

As I like the look LC709A really the most for lots of the stuff I'll shoot
this is the way to go for me. I even don't know if there's any benefit
of not baking this look into the footage as it gives me the same DR but
mapped differently. I'll get at least my WFM back to control exposure
accurately without external monitoring.

What I would like the best too: Enable LUTs in custom mode. Period.

Another solution for me would be to have LUTs applied to the viewfinder
while recording in cineEI and have noise reduction and WFM working at
the same time. In the end this would not be cineEI as Sony wants it to have.

I even don't think that Sony will give us LUTs in custom mode as it stands
in contrast to what Sony wants custom mode to be in opposite to cineEI.

So here we are: We need LUTs converted to profiles, that work in custom mode
and off we go!
 
Having worked with my F55 for a year and half now, and having conducted numerous controlled tests as I wrote a 300+ page book for that camera, I can tell you that Sony's built-in LUTs are a definate step down from images you can create with a good custom scene file and the paint menus. There are many reasons you might want to use a LUT for monitoring, but I would never bake-in any LUTs with the F55 or the FS7. If you want to avoid grading S-LOG, then your best alternative is to create a custom scene file. Even if you could use LUTs in the custom mode, you would not be getting the best quality images.

http://www.vortexmedia.com/Guide-to-Sony-F55.html


.
 
I'm not the master here, but I don't like generalizing.

If it's your own profile or one of the presets - both won't be ideal in almost every situation.
There's no "best" way in recording your footage as there is no "best" way in framing your image.

I still work with my trusty FS100 an generate some pleasing images out of it.
I know it's limitations and have build my own picture presets based on others.

Now I'm an early adopter - no picture profiles available yet. I have seen footage with custom
profiles on youtube and vimeo. They look very far from what I want.
The LC709A looks very close to what I want to begin with. These presets took Sony and some other
much more experienced guys like us quite a long time to develop. I like them very much and they
are what I wanted with the FS100 but never got that highlight response. This soft rolloff with
desaturation at the same time. The LC709A does exactly this.

If you like some other look - work with it. But don't think you have the best look of them all.
It's a matter of taste and I like the color response of film much more than the punchy video
look or the ugly wrong graded Log-footage that we have seen lately.
 
I am in the same boat, I haven't invested more than 5 seconds in creating nice scene files so while I have to admit Doug gets really nice images by using them, I also think he has many years experience going back to prior Sony cameras in creating them and knowing how and what works best.

I am more of a shoot "RAW" and grade later guy, but I agree with Doug that if you are trying to get a nice image in camera then probably investing time in learning how to create scene files could be the way to go. Arguably however, I think the LC709-A LUT is a great starting point much better than the defacto "Sony look" you will get with the cine/hypergammas.

To each his own, and what works best for them.
 
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