F5 and F55 detailed specifications (thanks to Sony Europe)

Red's trade in program for Red One owners was revolutionary.They sold Epics to Red One owners at bellow 10 000, depending on the "stage" program one was in.

The Epic/Scarlets are modular- use the same accessories. These accessories include the media bay, the battery bay, the Mounts, the sensor, etc. This means that not only can one upgrade the sensor, but also the media module to something faster if it comes along. The same applies to all other modules. The form factor, for me, is still the best from all available options. Have anyone actually hold a Scarlet or an Epic? It is a quality product, with solid materials- definitely feels more solid than the plastic of some of the competition.

Like I said, I'm perfectly confortable with my redcode raw, high frame rates 5K (more or less 4K true resolution) of the APS-H sized Epic sensor. Images look stunning: Films like The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, Pirates 4, The Hobbit, The Great Gatsby, Spiderman (2012), Prometheus, etc where shot on it.

I'm getting absolutely stunning images with it, shooting Guerrilla. To my local population, the Epic with a side handle looks just like a Picture camera, and I get natural reaction documentary shots, and get away with shooting without permits. Here's an example:

https://vimeo.com/38020250

And even Guerrilla filmmaking, also without permits:

https://vimeo.com/52541218

Notice this was all shot with Low to no light. Only used a couple of China LED lights (V mount battery powered).

These where only for fun. I've already shot some Commercials with it, including this (opening scenics only)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TknUUZm41yk

All these shot only with the Epic, sidehandle (No big V mount batteries), Canon Mount, red 5" Touch LCD. Nothing more.

Anyway, I'm sure these Sony cameras will be great. I'm sure the sensors will be more sensitive, for example, and the Dynamic range, on paper, sounds excelent. But I have no complains whatsoever in the Epic's dynamic range. Just look at the above videos.

The Epic at 20K is a steal. The Scarlet probably is not the best deal right now, however- unless they announce a firmware upgrade that turns it into a Red One in terms of performance. And you know they can do it if people ask for it enough. This is something that you don't get from the "Giants".

Its good to see Sony mentioning "firmware upgrades" to increase features for the F5 and F55 line. Something they wouldn't even consider before Red came along. But, like I said, I liked and like the way I am treated by Red as a costumer. Can't say the same as a previous Sony, or any other major brand, really, owner.
 
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The RED upgrade system and modularity is pretty sweet. The only negative i see is the fan position... If they want to fix the noise issue, they will have to change the brain/chassis.
 
The RED upgrade and modularity system seems like a good idea at first, but I don't think it's sustainable. Changes in technology, low margins and other forces will cause them to slowly abandoned a lot of backward compatibility (IMO). Their motto is: "Subject to change" so you never know what will happen.

We can see it in some of their track record. They've only made two camera body chassis: Red One and Epic/Scarlet. Yet most of the RED One accessories can't even be used on Epic/Scarlet. Epic stuff can be used on Scarlet but that's because they're basically the same camera (difference is mainly internal binning).

RED One started with CF card modules but later Epic required an SSD module. So you had to get new media if you came from RED One.

The Meizler module records to Prores, but on REDMAG mini cards. I'm not clear on this, but is that a whole new SSD card? So you have to buy new media to use the Meizler module? If so, there you go again.

My general feeling is that RED likes to sell their brains for cheap and then get their profit back on accessories (the printer/ink cartridge business model). You can see this in how pricey some of the accessories are and how they lock you into some propriety stuff--like RED proprietary rosettes and media.

I suspect that the sensor upgrade might not be $6,000 after some time. It might go up because they find out they have to swap out some boards as well. Remember, with RED, everything is subject to change.
 
dcloud said:
F3 is discontinued. In bhphoto. So f5 is the replacement.?

Edit
Ok maybe not yet disconinued
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The F3 is not discontinued, you probably saw the original non-SLOG F3 model. The new models for sale are PMW-F3L/RGB and PMW-F3K/RGB.


Grug said:
How so? You've got cameras with very full-featured HD/2K/4K(F55) internal recording options, with the added capability to record 4K raw if you want to.

Naturally newer and better cameras will eventually arrive, but both of the cameras offer the ability to remain relevant well into 4K actually gaining traction as a wide-spread medium (which makes having to upgrade, less of a concern).
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I too asked "what was next" and was given plenty of replies. Surely one way or another the market will find a way to replace these cameras (and others) in ways we cant even begin to imagine. It could be as simple as "price" or form factor, codec, etc... anything that would lure those into the hot seat of a new camera. But like you said the F5 & F55 at least with their flexibility and feature-set should remain relevant for some time. (hopefully. GULP.)
 
Amr Rahmy said:
facts and evidence is in front of us, you may choose to be delusional, but don't post it as fact.

the red one used did not sell for much before the price drop. that's all the red track record so far, 100% of their camera depreciated to the point of zero. second generation same story all over again, and this time a much faster depreciation.
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Calling other members "delusional" is a good way to shorten your welcome here at DVXUser. Keep things civil.
 
starcentral said:
I too asked "what was next" and was given plenty of replies. Surely one way or another the market will find a way to replace these cameras (and others) in ways we cant even begin to imagine. It could be as simple as "price" or form factor, codec, etc... anything that would lure those into the hot seat of a new camera. But like you said the F5 & F55 at least with their flexibility and feature-set should remain relevant for some time. (hopefully. GULP.)
Click to expand...

Once image quality has reached levels that can't be improved much more (without going to 8K), I predict they will focus on operational improvements. They'll design sensors with switchable native sensitivities so you don't have native 2000 ISO and have to stack a bunch of ND filters. Aaton is already working on this, but they're doing it mechanically.

Reducing power consumption is another goal. This creates less heat to dissipate and allows longer run times and less batteries. New microprocessors and/or radical cooling technology will be needed to achieve this. Ideally, the camera should be fanless (hopefully one day in the future).

Monitoring will improve and EVFs will go to even higher resolutions.

Perhaps more automation will be added. On chip AF sensors could be added and sophisticated AF tracking could be implemented. There is already this type of AF assist in large EFP lenses from Canon and Fujinon. This technolgy may come from the consumer digital camera market which needs to improve AF drastically on large sensor cameras for consumer use.

Perhaps new compression or codec technology will surface that will allow RAW type manipulation but at much reduced data rates.

The high frame race will probably continue, at least until 300 FPS (full image) and probably beyond. This might require new data bus protocols to handle the bandwidth, so media technology will change and advance. Hopefully everything gets less expensive as well.
 
One last thing i forgot to mention but was also an important aspect of my choice: intelligent Canon- and now Nikon- mounts, able to control iris as well as IS. With both the Epic and Scaflet I have full IS support for all my Canon lenses and aperture. Not possible with the Sony cameras, correct me if im wrong. A big factor there. Much better than going with "dumb" mounts...

I probably sound like a Red salesman right now and will stop. Bottom line is we live in great times. Like Timur said in another thread, seemed like yesterday we where salivating with the 24p of the DVX and the Variable frame rates of the HVX... Now we can trully say: " no more excuses!" to shoot our masterpieces! :)
 
With all this talk about the new F5/55. Has anyone noticed that on release, only 8bit 42:2 50mbs Mpeg2 is available for internal recording on the F5? Has Sony made any indication the firmware upgrade will be free or low cost?

I've noticed 2 main types of owners in this thread, those that talk about what they are doing with their cameras, and those complaining about resale value as if it were no different than a personal automobile. People doing things and making money with their gear seem to be less worried about price drops and depreciation.
Not attacking anyone, just an observation.
 
I believe he specifically said "on release", so is it true that only 8bit mpeg2 will ship with the F5 and the other codecs will come later?
 
starcentral said:
I believe he specifically said "on release", so is it true that only 8bit mpeg2 will ship with the F5 and the other codecs will come later?
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As I understand it, any variation of the SR codecs, plus 2K XAVC and quadHD XAVC are not going to be there at release.

That means 1080p XAVC and 4096x2160 XAVC (F55 only) *will* be operational @ship time.
 
I read your post wrong.. I was hoping you posed the 2k would be there... lol... cool 240fps... but always new the 2k and quad where in the free upgrade...
 
Grug said:
How so? You've got cameras with very full-featured HD/2K/4K(F55) internal recording options, with the added capability to record 4K raw if you want to.

Naturally newer and better cameras will eventually arrive, but both of the cameras offer the ability to remain relevant well into 4K actually gaining traction as a wide-spread medium (which makes having to upgrade, less of a concern).
Click to expand...


Yes but we as a Large group of people who like our Technology are struck by the "I want the next best thing next".

How many threads are there or posts with the phrases "How does the next camera measure up to the previous".

It is the marketing skills of these companies to tease you out with features that reel you in to get the new Cameras.

I doubt they do like Software/Games companies do and hold back features and plan 2 cameras ahead in case other Companies get the jump on them.
 
zeke said:
I've noticed 2 main types of owners in this thread, those that talk about what they are doing with their cameras, and those complaining about resale value as if it were no different than a personal automobile. People doing things and making money with their gear seem to be less worried about price drops and depreciation.
Not attacking anyone, just an observation.
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some of us are making money with our cameras, but perhaps not quickly enough to qualify for your second type of person. of course, that's partially dependent on when someone bought in. but then, if we're not paying it off quickly enough, does that mean we should be talking about it more? you only gave us two choices..... or, wait... you meant if we talk about it more, it's already paid for itself.
 
zeke said:
I've noticed 2 main types of owners in this thread, those that talk about what they are doing with their cameras, and those complaining about resale value as if it were no different than a personal automobile. People doing things and making money with their gear seem to be less worried about price drops and depreciation.
Not attacking anyone, just an observation.
Click to expand...


I'm kind of both. I went into my invoicing and counted 34 days of F3 rentals since I got it in March 2011. Most of them @600/day/pkg

That means it's paid for itself, but just barely. Depends if you count cost of S-Log, which I bought 2.5 months before it went free, it figures significantly into my break-even/profit analysis. Another reason why it's hard to just let that issue go...

I'm on the teetering edge of feeling like a chump chasing the new camera, even though it purports to fix many things I've had issues with on paying jobs. HDMI EVF for handheld has bit me ("why can't we watch the monitor on this shot?"), external recorder has bit me a little, rube-goldberg rigging has had me swearing and sweating...

I'll likely buy the F5 just because it fixes all this in one fell swoop. But it means that I essentially fronted $21K for the convenience of not having to drive to Burbank to rent a cam for 90% of my shoot days; I'm giving up any future profits on my investment by upgrading.
 
Nate Weaver said:
I'm kind of both. I went into my invoicing and counted 34 days of F3 rentals since I got it in March 2011. Most of them @600/day/pkg

That means it's paid for itself, but just barely. Depends if you count cost of S-Log, which I bought 2.5 months before it went free, it figures significantly into my break-even/profit analysis. Another reason why it's hard to just let that issue go...

I'm on the teetering edge of feeling like a chump chasing the new camera, even though it purports to fix many things I've had issues with on paying jobs. HDMI EVF for handheld has bit me ("why can't we watch the monitor on this shot?"), external recorder has bit me a little, rube-goldberg rigging has had me swearing and sweating...

I'll likely buy the F5 just because it fixes all this in one fell swoop. But it means that I essentially fronted $21K for the convenience of not having to drive to Burbank to rent a cam for 90% of my shoot days; I'm giving up any future profits on my investment by upgrading.
Click to expand...

Well... look back. You probably didn't expect your current camera to pay itself off so fast? If you can break 0 then you might not have earned anything on it, but atleast it hasn't cost you anything. I can live with even, if I've been able to support myself economically all the while. Especially in these times...
 
legrevedotcom said:
I can live with even, if I've been able to support myself economically all the while. Especially in these times...
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I can live with even as well, I suppose, but I really want 2.5-3 years out of the next camera. The last 2-3 cameras, major shifts are being introduced so quickly that to stay competitive in Los Angeles, you get 2 years out of every camera. I'd like for things to slow down a little.
 
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