F5 and F55 detailed specifications (thanks to Sony Europe)

[Viddovation]

Look at us F3 owners, not even 2 years later and the F5 replaces it with the codec F3 owners wanted and 4k they don't want but will have to pay $4000-$5000 over F3 list price.

Life is risk. Fundamentally, however, you should make decisions in the present. When I bought my F3 the technical specs and future functionality was clearly explained, and at no point did Sony ever promise me "we won't put out a superseding model in less than X years."

Some people like to cry over spilled milk.

 

[GaryinCalifornia]

My guy in Canada said $18k for the F5 and $28k for F55. I can't see $10k spread, but then again maybe I could.

Was trying to post the jpeg to it... but Nate guessed this way... F55 29k MSRP... $24,106.25 MSP ('street")... so maybe he's close... hope the street price guess is right.. : )

 

[starcentral]

Life is risk. Fundamentally, however, you should make decisions in the present. When I bought my F3 the technical specs and future functionality was clearly explained, and at no point did Sony ever promise me "we won't put out a superseding model in less than X years."

Some people like to cry over spilled milk.

Yes true indeed, and everyone has to make a choice based on what's best for them. At the time I bought my F3 I thought $16k with taxes all in was great for what I was. Heck I still do in some ways.

your talking about a much improved camera that only costs 4-5k difference, stop, and think about it.

the resale value of sony's F3 is still much higher and did not depreciate as much as the red cameras. red ones don't resale for a fraction of their initial list price.

As technology advances it costs less not more.

You can't count a one-time price drop by a company as depreciation, that is special circumstance afterall they only carry two camers where Sony/Canon just release a few models each only a little bit better than the last.

Anyway to each his own, but I agree with Sergio fundamentally. No other company has offered a sensor upgrade or camera trade-in program. It's what makes RED special at what they do. They are game changers, unlike Sony/Canon who run on pure financial fundamentals.

 

[Amr Rahmy]

facts and evidence is in front of us, you may choose to be delusional, but don't post it as fact.

the red one used did not sell for much before the price drop. that's all the red track record so far, 100% of their camera depreciated to the point of zero. second generation same story all over again, and this time a much faster depreciation.

 

[starcentral]

facts and evidence is in front of us, you may choose to be delusional, but don't post it as fact.

the red one used did not sell for much before the price drop. that's all the red track record so far, 100% of their camera depreciated to the point of zero. second generation same story all over again, and this time a much faster depreciation.

Nevermind RED, do you want to buy my F3?

:happy:

 

[Piolet]

No other company has offered a sensor upgrade or camera trade-in program. It's what makes RED special at what they do. They are game changers, unlike Sony/Canon who run on pure financial fundamentals.

This isn't entirely true. Other companies have had loyalty programs. RED is just good at making it seem like they're the first.

Canon has had a loyalty program for their digital cameras. You could trade in a Canon camera, working or not, for 20% off a refurbished model.

Panasonic had a trade-in program in 2009 for a Varicam. They even accepted cameras from other manufacturers! This took 50% ($20K) off the list price: http://www.b-roll.net/today/2009/10/panasonic-is-offering-trade-up-to-varicam-p2/

Several other companies have had buy-backs for printers and phones, etc. Then there's always the proven trade-up program: sell to the secondary market.

I'm not sure if anyone has offered a sensor upgrade before, except for maybe a few boutique camera manufacturers. It's probably not realistic or cost-effective for a mass produced camera manufacturer to offer a sensor upgrade if there are hundreds of thousands of units out there. So just because RED is offering it for now, doesn't mean it's sustainable in the future. I bet after Dragon, they'll just design a new camera.

Also, RED can do certain things because it's privately owned by a billionaire who could probably be perfectly happy breaking even if he really wanted to. The other companies don't have that luxury.

 

[starcentral]

This isn't entirely true. Other companies have had loyalty programs. ...... You could trade in a Canon camera, working or not, for 20% off a refurbished model...

Sorry I don't buy refurbished goods, and certainly wouldn't drop $25k on a refurbished F55.

 

[Piolet]

Sorry I don't buy refurbished goods, and certainly wouldn't drop $25k on a refurbished F55.

How about 50% off, saving $20K, on a brand new Varicam for trading in a working broadcast camera, even from another manufacturer?

My point is still the same. RED is not the first nor the only one that offers a trade-in program. They are not special nor game-changers in that regard.

 

[Amr Rahmy]

if as per your previous post your f3 is obsolete, if it's an f3k with the slog upgrade(not the free firmware), i can take it off your hand and pay for shipping + send you a cookie. but i don't like rolling shutter artifacts.

you can put it on ebay.

 

[Viddovation]

Sorry I don't buy refurbished goods, and certainly wouldn't drop $25k on a refurbished F55.

Starcentral,

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Yes, RED has a sensor upgrade path for EPIC, but as far as I'm aware, none for Scarlet.

So lets do some math.

First, let's see what it will cost you to move from Scarlet to DRAGON. Let's assume you keep all accessories and just trade out the brain. A new Scarlet brain costs $7,950. I'm going to credit you with $6,000 in pocket for that. Remember, RED requires you to send the camera in, and they assess a transfer fee ($750 I beleive). Then you buy your EPIC brain *new*, seeing as you don't like refurbished stuff. So that's $19,000. Then it's $6,000 for the Dragon sensor switch, whenever it's released. In essence, it'll cost you $19,000 to switch to Dragon, but likely would cost at least $30,000 to $35,000 if you didn't already own accessories.

Now, Sony. Well, you've posted your F3 asking for $10,500 with no batteries or charger or media. Let's assume by the time you sell it you clear $9,000 in pocket. I hope you get more, but this is for the sake of argument. Let's assume the price of the F55 at $25k, and an allowance of $3k for new SxS+ cards, and any batteries you don't own. That's $28,000. Minus the $9000 you collected for selling your F3. Cost to you? $19,000 to upgrade.

Yes, this is speculative. But I think it's incredibly disingenuous to harp on about how RED's upgrade makes them so much better than Sony.

 

[starcentral]

How about 50% off, saving $20K, on a brand new Varicam for trading in a working broadcast camera, even from another manufacturer?

My point is still the same. RED is not the first nor the only one that offers a trade-in program. They are not special nor game-changers in that regard.

Yes great but those are limited programs and exceptions - not the norm. RED's program is the only one of its kind to CONTINUALLY allow upgrade paths to its sensors and cameras. No other does that on a continual or consistent basis. That's the point.

 

[FrameFarmMedia]

RED's program is the only one of its kind to CONTINUALLY allow upgrade paths to its sensors and cameras. No other does that on a continual or consistent basis. That's the point.

What is the difference between spending the same amount as a new camera again to get all new boards and sensor as opposed to selling your camera and putting the money into a new one. It seems to come out to the same. Is keeping the same outter shell really something that matters that much?

The 'upgrade path' is pure marketing spin. It's like thanking Red for allowing you buy their new products. In the end it saves Red money as they don't have to spend on constructing new body styles or making new bodies. Time will tell if it saves the consumer money. The upgrade won't be cheap (And isn't included as a deal with new reduced price epics) It's clear that even if the dragon upgrade is possible for Scarlet it will require an entire new camera worth of internals. I guess they save you the hasstle of selling your camera but to me there are pluses that come from having new body styles come out and buying those. Imagine what a let down it would be for Sony to upgrade internals only of the F3? I'm glad they came out with a better design. No design is perfect they can always improve. I guess maybe some feel their Red camera design can't be improved on with a new body design but I disagree.

 

[starcentral]

Starcentral,

There's more than one way to skin a cat. Yes, RED has a sensor upgrade path for EPIC, but as far as I'm aware, none for Scarlet.

So lets do some math.

First, let's see what it will cost you to move from Scarlet to DRAGON. Let's assume you keep all accessories and just trade out the brain. A new Scarlet brain costs $7,950. I'm going to credit you with $6,000 in pocket for that. Remember, RED requires you to send the camera in, and they assess a transfer fee ($750 I beleive). Then you buy your EPIC brain *new*, seeing as you don't like refurbished stuff. So that's $19,000. Then it's $6,000 for the Dragon sensor switch, whenever it's released. In essence, it'll cost you $19,000 to switch to Dragon, but likely would cost at least $30,000 to $35,000 if you didn't already own accessories.

Now, Sony. Well, you've posted your F3 asking for $10,500 with no batteries or charger or media. Let's assume by the time you sell it you clear $9,000 in pocket. I hope you get more, but this is for the sake of argument. Let's assume the price of the F55 at $25k, and an allowance of $3k for new SxS+ cards, and any batteries you don't own. That's $28,000. Minus the $9000 you collected for selling your F3. Cost to you? $19,000 to upgrade.

Yes, this is speculative. But I think it's incredibly disingenuous to harp on about how RED's upgrade makes them so much better than Sony.

At this time there is nothing for scarlet, that is true. But I'm sure it will change when it needs to. RED is just that kind of company.

As for your comparison you're not factoring in all the media, batteries, and other bits we have to "replace" with practically each generation change. Some of it can be carried forward but most of it becomes obsolete and replaced. This is where some of us are coming from and we are a little tired of it. Maybe the guys coming from broadcast changed cameras a few times, perhaps to 2/3" at some point and now s35. But for others working with s35 for the last 10 years its been a technological journey with bastardized cameras, adapter rigs, headaches, external decks, etc.. and RED even with its quirks has helped put an end to some of that. It is a great feeling.

Technology is changing so fast that should we expect these "upgrades" every 18-24 months? Look at the progress like BMCC but think of the casualties too.

What is the difference between spending the same amount as a new camera again to get all new boards and sensor as opposed to selling your camera and putting the money into a new one. It seems to come out to the same. Is keeping the same outter shell really something that matters that much?

The 'upgrade path' is pure marketing spin. It's like thanking Red for allowing you buy their new products. In the end it saves Red money as they don't have to spend on constructing new body styles or making new bodies. Time will tell if it saves the consumer money. The upgrade won't be cheap (And isn't included as a deal with new reduced price epics) It's clear that even if the dragon upgrade is possible for Scarlet it will require an entire new camera worth of internals. I guess they save you the hasstle of selling your camera but to me there are pluses that come from having new body styles come out and buying those. Imagine what a let down it would be for Sony to upgrade internals only of the F3? I'm glad they came out with a better design. No design is perfect they can always improve. I guess maybe some feel their Red camera design can't be improved on with a new body design but I disagree.

The media, batteries and accessories the "new generation" cameras by Sony/Canon/Company X will use.

 

[Viddovation]

StarCentral,

It's a 12v power system, compatible with existing V-lock batteries, and with an adapter, existing Anton Bauer batteries. the F5 and F55 has an XLR 12volt input for any other battery system you like. The new Sony batteries are not required.

"RED is just that kind of company." Fine, but let me remind you that "Everything is subject to change" and that there's a current thread over at Reduser about Jim Jannard slowly stepping away from the helm of the company. Everything changes.

 

[starcentral]

"RED is just that kind of company." Fine, but let me remind you that "Everything is subject to change" and that there's a current thread over at Reduser about Jim Jannard slowly stepping away from the helm of the company. Everything changes.

You might not want to take that thread out of context. Also in that same thread he says this:

My bet (a substantial one) is that RED will be the ones to deliver the future of image capture.

Anyone want to bet against us? I'm open to the amount of the bet.

Jim

But let's stick with the thread F5 & F55 specs discussion; YES if you've invested in AB you are pretty safe and can use them with practically any camera system as well as to power a variety of accessories. But not everyone is using v-mount and there are a lot of people who own the F3 for example who only use BP-U60 batteries. Regardless it still leaves you having to upgrade media, external decks possibly, etc,, and as always as consumers we want X and hope for a little more but get Y and get a little less. It's business, I get it.

I've been upgrading cameras for over 10 years and its one route to go, I'm just thinking of the alternative and what a nice change it might be. If you can afford to buy a new $20,000 camera and another $6000 in accessories to run it every 18-24 months go ahead - no one is stopping you.

 

[Viddovation]

The difference being, you're upgrading to a standardized battery set. If Sony was asking you to upgrade to yet another Sony proprietary battery system, I'd concur.

What does seem clear is that you have more faith than I do that RED's upgrade path will remain the most economical well into the future.

 

[Duke M.]

It's a 12v power system, compatible with existing V-lock batteries, and with an adapter, existing Anton Bauer batteries. the F5 and F55 has an XLR 12volt input for any other battery system you like. The new Sony batteries are not required.

If it has the XLR input even the BP-U60, U92, etc will work fine with the same XLR adapter I use on the F3. Since its the Sony mount I think the Optitek Prolock will fit, as will the PL mount. There should be a lot of compatability.

I want to hang the F5 off my Cooke lens. (The lens weighs more than twice what the camera weighs.)

 

[EIREHotspur]

Like a few people on the Boards I think that the "upgrade path" selling point of these new cameras is a Red Herring.

Like I said somewhere else by the time 4k gains traction they will have new models out and people will want them.

 

[dcloud]

F3 is discontinued. In bhphoto. So f5 is the replacement.?

Edit
Ok maybe not yet disconinued

 

[Grug]

Like a few people on the Boards I think that the "upgrade path" selling point of these new cameras is a Red Herring.

Like I said somewhere else by the time 4k gains traction they will have new models out and people will want them.

How so? You've got cameras with very full-featured HD/2K/4K(F55) internal recording options, with the added capability to record 4K raw if you want to.

Naturally newer and better cameras will eventually arrive, but both of the cameras offer the ability to remain relevant well into 4K actually gaining traction as a wide-spread medium (which makes having to upgrade, less of a concern).