F5 and F55 detailed specifications (thanks to Sony Europe)

starcentral said:
So this is not a true 4k camera then?
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Look at here - http://www.tvtechnology.com/equipment/0082/new-sony-cameras-designed-for-k-tv/216188

The F65 has a 20Megapixels sensor, with twice as many pixels as these two new Cine Alta cameras. From the F65 8K RAW signal, 4:4:4 4K signal at up to 120fps can be extracted. But these are 4K cameras that can deliver HD or higher, with performance above our PMW-F3 camcorder. And price-wise, they’re between the F65 and the F3.

- F65 has true 4K colors 444 from 20Mpx sensor (true 422 colors are 2x 4096 x 2160 = 18Mpx .-), but it's ok ).

F5/F55 with 8,9Mpx must be true 2K colors cameras (444 2K colors are 3x 2048 x 1080 = 6Mpx) with 4K option from interpolated 422 colors (debayering) at 4K. The real picture at 4K can be a very impressive due a big DR (14 stop) and raw (with the optional raw recorder) and also a very good internal record (from the XAVC 100Mbps to the SR 220Mbps). I think it will be.
 
It's 4K in the sense of the original Red One. Means after the 4K raw is debayered, it won't resolve 4K quite. From that same sensor resolution, the Red One sensor resolved more like 3.2-3.3K

Not a problem for me personally. I'm not about to go pixel peeping on 4K deliverables, nor do I even have the hardware to do so.
 
Nate Weaver said:
It's 4K in the sense of the original Red One. Means after the 4K raw is debayered, it won't resolve 4K quite. From that same sensor resolution, the Red One sensor resolved more like 3.2-3.3K

Not a problem for me personally. I'm not about to go pixel peeping on 4K deliverables, nor do I even have the hardware to do so.
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ok and how's that compare to Scarlet/EPIC? I am interested to know these comparisons, thank you.
 
starcentral said:
ok and how's that compare to Scarlet/EPIC? I am interested to know these comparisons, thank you.
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Oversimplifying, and doing that yet based on pre-release info of one of the cameras...

An Epic can shoot 5K @24. That 5K debayers into a 4K deliverable with 4K of resolution pretty handily. Has close to 4:4:4 color resolution as well.

The Scarlet can't shoot 5K @24, it has to bump down to 4K, debayering that 4K raw resolves 3.3-ishK of resolution.

Diverging from the pure resolution discussion, the F3 (arguably) and the F5 (likely) have more latitude than either the Epic or Scarlet. Neither of the Reds are slouches in latitude, but there are cameras surpassing them. F5+F55 are likely to be some of them. Until the Dragon sensor comes, so sayeth the faithful.

One other point I just thought of, consumer 4K delivery is going to be quad HD, 3840x2160, which makes the situation better for the new F cameras.

By the time we all have enough 4K hardware to really get nitty gritty about 4K deliverable resolution, I have a feeling there will be other reasons to upgrade to whatever generation is after the current (not even released yet!) cameras (size, latitude, convenience, etc)
 
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Nate I'm sitting on a receipt of a Scarlet, currently own an F3 and looking at F5/F55. My mind is spinning trying to rationalize any decisions. Do I really buy into a "single cam", or perhaps owning two cams makes sense as I don't quite believe one camera "will do it all" anyway.

My list of requirements are:
- Ability to shoot 2k with better bit rates and color space than F3 internal (8-bit 420). I'd be happy with 10-bit 422.
- Ability for 2k RAW
- I am a DOP so I use lighting for my shots - but 3200-6400ISO has saved my ass at times.
- 4k? Honestly not crazy for it, not for the work I do and by the time 4k becomes "mainstream" in 2020 there I suspect RED will be giving cameras away and licensing software through the cloud in order to use their FREE hardware. (Don't laugh, I will be suggesting that to Jim/Jarred a little later today).

The F3 is "near" 2k and using a recorder I can get 10-bit 422 and maybe even RAW if I buy the right recorder. I can also throw a cheap recorder on a RED camera and also have 1080p 10-bit 422 and it does RAW internally (sort of internally - I call SSD module internal but I know its actually not). Lastly I can look at what will be an expensive F5 and do internal recording with 10-bit 422 (or maybe betteR) and shoot RAW externally with AXS-R5 or 3rd party deck.

Price is not so much the objective as is my sanity.
 
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It's a tough call. I wouldn't make any decisions until prices of the entire F5 system are known (but I didn't need to tell you that).

After that point, I wouldn't make any decisions based on specs or paper resolutions. There's too many other factors that are more important.

I know what image the F3 makes, used it for 21 months, have shot plenty of Red (and done the post too many times), so it's an easy decision for me. I've developed a taste for the product that offers the most options, because my work is all over the place as far as resources.
 
Nate Weaver said:
I know what image the F3 makes, used it for 21 months, have shot plenty of Red (and done the post too many times), so it's an easy decision for me. I've developed a taste for the product that offers the most options, because my work is all over the place as far as resources.
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Which of those products do you feel gives you the most options Nate?
 
Do you find shooting RED actually faster during production since you use metadata later to "expose your image" whereas working with codec you have to worry more on set/in-camera?
 
starcentral said:
Do you find shooting RED actually faster during production since you use metadata later to "expose your image" whereas working with codec you have to worry more on set/in-camera?
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You still have to expose correctly with a Red. If you don't you'll lop off a part of your DR.
 
starcentral said:
Do you find shooting RED actually faster during production since you use metadata later to "expose your image" whereas working with codec you have to worry more on set/in-camera?
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No no. You can't think like that. You still have to take care and do things right. It's just an added nicety when you're dealing with some situations that you can't control as much as you'd like.

vanvideo said:
Yes, inquiring minds want to know.
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Oy. If you were giving me a jab, I suppose I'd deserve it. I'm running off at the mouth a lot lately. Guess I'm excited to move on from the F3 and this is my outlet at the moment. Means I need to be shooting more, editing (and sitting in front of computer all day) less.

I was talking about the F5/55
 
I'm not suggesting you don't have to expose right but you can change ISO "after" you've shot footage to adjust the exposure, so in this sense you focus on low or high protection, framing, shutter speed, aperture, and shoot.
 
My guy in Canada said $18k for the F5 and $28k for F55. I can't see $10k spread, but then again maybe I could.

My sales guy also reminded me about Sony's imfamous "Sony tax" - which means higher prices paid for a premium brand. So while many are convinced RED has waged a war on major manufacturers and Sony will react. They are wrong. Sony/Canon is not even close to thinking about RED, not to say they shouldn't be, but I'm saying I just don't think they are.
 
One thing is for sure: Redcode Raw is cemented and established. No one ever talks bad about redcode raw, and this is obviously because the codec is good. Nowadays every major NLE (excluding avid, unfortunately) works natively with r3d's. The other companies implementation of raw has still got a ways to go in terms of overall post implementation. This will obvioulsy change, but it takes time.

Have to say I'm a bit biased since I own an Epic, but I don't see myself going back to companies that completely destroy the value of my camera with the introduction of a new model. F3 owners will definitely have a hard time selling after the introduction of the "upgrade", the F5. I will only have to pay for a new sensor upgrade to get a new camera.
 
SPZ said:
Have to say I'm a bit biased since I own an Epic, but I don't see myself going back to companies that completely destroy the value of my camera with the introduction of a new model. F3 owners will definitely have a hard time selling after the introduction of the "upgrade", the F5. I will only have to pay for a new sensor upgrade to get a new camera.
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Just the same you took an overnight $15,000 hit to the street value of your camera. Everything changes. Everything depreciates.
 
SPZ said:
Have to say I'm a bit biased since I own an Epic, but I don't see myself going back to companies that completely destroy the value of my camera with the introduction of a new model. F3 owners will definitely have a hard time selling after the introduction of the "upgrade", the F5. I will only have to pay for a new sensor upgrade to get a new camera.
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I'm not sure if the "upgrade" business model is any better. It's just different. You're not immune to depreciation either, since Epic's resell value just went way down after the 45% price cut. Also, you're not really getting a new camera. You're getting a new sensor. You're still stuck with the current camera chassis and any limitations it may already have.

The "new camera" business model at least allows the manufacturer to keep improving the camera chassis and form factor. With each new generation, engineers are allowed to make a clean sheet design, rather than be constrained to an existing package. I could argue this is a better approach. Also, new cameras generally come about every two years and they get announced well ahead of availability. This then allows you to consider selling your old gear to upgrade to the new one. Because electronics improve so fast, I personally think this is a better approach than the "upgrade" way of doing things. I dislike that RED has painted this as something evil that other companies do. Both approaches have their pros and cons. However, I admit the rapid rate of electronic products production is pretty bad on the environment.
 
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Viddovation said:
Just the same you took an overnight $15,000 hit to the street value of your camera. Everything changes. Everything depreciates.
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I think the point is that RED as a company doesn't make your equipment obsolete by introducing the same camera sliced & diced 10 different ways at price ranging from an extra zero to even two zeros.

Sure RED cut their pricing, but that wasn't Sergio's point. RED has done the LEAST to screw their customers, which is difficult to say for Sony & Canon. (Oh and look at AF105 now, what a joke, where was it 5 years ago?)

Read the boards, Canon users crying over a new firmware release over a price drop - because they are already owners and want MORE functionality. A price drop doesn't help them at this point. Look at us F3 owners, not even 2 years later and the F5 replaces it with the codec F3 owners wanted and 4k they don't want but will have to pay $4000-$5000 over F3 list price.

*Viddo my comments not entirely directed to you, I'm just ranting on Sony/Canon mostly...
 
starcentral said:
I think the point is that RED as a company doesn't make your equipment obsolete by introducing the same camera sliced & diced 10 different ways at price ranging from an extra zero to even two zeros.

Sure RED cut their pricing, but that wasn't Sergio's point. RED has done the LEAST to screw their customers, which is difficult to say for Sony & Canon. (Oh and look at AF105 now, what a joke, where was it 5 years ago?)

Read the boards, Canon users crying over a new firmware release over a price drop - because they are already owners and want MORE functionality. A price drop doesn't help them at this point. Look at us F3 owners, not even 2 years later and the F5 replaces it with the codec F3 owners wanted and 4k they don't want but will have to pay $4000-$5000 over F3 list price.

*Viddo my comments not entirely directed to you, I'm just ranting on Sony/Canon mostly...
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red first generation "it's going to be modular"
red second generation "the first generation is obsolete and has no resale value, but trust us, the newer generation is going to be modular"
red second generation a few month later "we are cutting the price of our current product and blocking any resale value for first generation camera"

your talking about a much improved camera that only costs 4-5k difference, stop, and think about it.

the resale value of sony's F3 is still much higher and did not depreciate as much as the red cameras. red ones don't resale for a fraction of their initial list price.
 
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