F3 or used Red One MX: pros and cons?
- Thread starter SPZ
- Start date
tom.wong
Well-known member
Not a lot of deals in Toronto specifically but when you consider the market on a global scale there are over 3000 Red One's out there. Some of them in use day in and day out, others sitting on a shelf as spares, and some with people who've decided for whatever reason not to keep it anymore.
I really need some convincing now to move forward with an F3.The Sony should have at the very least allowed 422 to the sxs pro cards and saved 444 for those productions or specific scenes that really called for it. I had really been convinced on the F3, even ordered my MTF adapter already.. but now I just don't know.
if you need that much convincing to get an F3, you should probably get an R1 if you still feel that will do everything you want it to do for you. In the end, it's your business decision, and all cameras have drawbacks and merits. No such thing as being perfect. the golden rule is always, good, cheap, fast. pick any 2 of the 3. so it's about what's more important to you out of those. to say an f3 is the same price as an r1 isn't true, you are buying a f3 brand new, vs a used r1. if you got a used f3 over a used r1, that would be way different in pricing wouldn't it? it's all relative.
starcentral
Veteran
Tom, a new Red One is $25k, the F3 with SLOG (and a way to record it) is over $26.5k.
tom.wong
Well-known member
a r1 BODY is 25k. are you forgetting EVF, SSD module, SSD's, LCD, and power? that will easily push you to almost 40k
starcentral
Veteran
Power is practically the same cost between F3 and Red. $150 difference per battery, big whoop, even the battery charger is the same cost. A RED CF module and 16GB CF card is $800 total, or go really top-end with a REDMAG 128GB with MAG MODULE for only $2500 total compared to one Sony Pro SXS 32GB card for $1009 which only records 4:2:0.
There must be other lower cost EVF solutions, or just shoot with LCD....
I'm just sayin'
There must be other lower cost EVF solutions, or just shoot with LCD....
I'm just sayin'
Kegan
Spam Assassin Mod
The problem with thinking that you only need this part or that part to make a RED functional, is that you're almost always wrong. We had to shoot with the LCD only on an outdoor shoot a month ago with our EPIC and talk about a pain...something as simple as a viewfinder/EVF would have been FANTASTIC. Mounting the EVF? Mounting solutions range from $500-800 just to mount it. To make your camera functional will cost a lot more than you think and while that's fine, you can't just budget the bare minimum if you want something that's functional in various situations.
Kegan
Kegan
tom.wong
Well-known member
and there's also mxr with sd card adapters that work flawless, hours of recording time for under 250 dollars, pop that in, throw on a lens, and a battery and the whole camera (F3) is ready to shoot. apples and oranges. I'm not saying one is a better value than the other, i don't even buy cameras or operate/dp. In fact I think both cams are AMAZING values for what they can do. but they do things differently, and they also have intense drawbacks too. with a major price variance, at least within thousands for each other. for some people, that's a negligible cost, for other's that's the thing that's gonna break the bank. it's always gonna be about what you need. workflow is another issue too, and as easy as RED workflow CAN be, there are just still a lot of productions out there that can't handle it, or know what they are doing with it. Costs are incurred on a variation of levels, and everything has to be assessed, 4k raw is great, but so can a nice pro res hq, high quality 1080p with a TON of native dynamic range. if resolution and RAW was the end all be all for production, not a single cam would go out other than RED. thus it just shows there's a reason for everything, and SPZ, I believe just has to assess his reasons for buying a camera, and just go from there.
there are still plenty of people happy with their t2i's
Fohdeesha
Well-known member
Why would you spend more than a thousand dollars on an SxS card when you included in your very own price calculation an offboard recorder?
Comparing a more or less ready to shoot (minus lens) f3 package to a red one BODY is pretty absurd. You left out quite a bit of stuff. How about a raid array or two to handle the more than twice as high data rate and storage? How about a red rocket card to debayer the footage you shoot so you don't have to wait 4000 days on a cpu debayer?
If you are considering a Red package, I highly suggest renting one, figuring out what you actually need to make shooting with one worth your time, and get used to the post workflow, not because it's not a great camera when you're set up for it, but because there are tons of little things that add up, both on set and in post, that you'll never realize reading forum posts.
And how in the world did you get 26k for an f3 package?
How about this?
f3 body - 14,000
s-log update - 3600
pix 240 offboard recorder - 2600
256gb ssd for the pix - 400
A Switronix battery kit/charger/cables to power everything - 600
SmallHD monitor - 900
Rail system to hold everything - (I'll round way up, for your pleasure - 900)
How bout a pretty decent SLR lens while we're at it? - 1000
There's a fully ready to go, READY TO PICK UP AND SHOOT f3 package for $24,000. That leaves you 1k for more SSD's to record to, perhaps another lens, whatever you want, before you're even at the price of a r1 body that can't do a damn thing by itself. And most of those numbers were rounded up.
They are both excellent cameras, and as I'm set up for it post wise, I would definitely rather be shooting with an r1, but that doesn't mean they cost the same. I'm sure within the year I'll end up getting an f3 simply because it is so much more cost effective, unless I come across a good used MX package.
Where in the world are you guys that F3's are so expensive? I got mine for 13,299.99 and slog for $3,680, with a ki pro (for free because I trade sLog with a ki pro owner)
Done. Slog / f3 - 16k, just gotta work out a deal or two.
Done. Slog / f3 - 16k, just gotta work out a deal or two.
starcentral
Veteran
I don't know why I put the sxs media into the calculation, it was just to show that the price to price comparison for RED to Sony is not too far off... sorry about that. (my mistake, my mistake)
If you want to record 444 you need cindeck, so:
F3 - $14k (without getting a deal)
SLOG - $3.6k (BHphotovideo)
Cinedeck - $8.5k
You will also need power for the deck.. not sure what that costs.
Anyway, $26.1k easy.
In Toronto I can not get the F3 for less, if anyone knows where... let me know
Why did you do SLOG upgrade if recording 422 on ki pro?
If you want to record 444 you need cindeck, so:
F3 - $14k (without getting a deal)
SLOG - $3.6k (BHphotovideo)
Cinedeck - $8.5k
You will also need power for the deck.. not sure what that costs.
Anyway, $26.1k easy.
In Toronto I can not get the F3 for less, if anyone knows where... let me know
Why did you do SLOG upgrade if recording 422 on ki pro?
Last edited:
I don't know why I put the sxs media into the calculation, it was just to show that the price to price comparison for RED to Sony is not too far off... sorry about that. (my mistake, my mistake)
If you want to record 444 you need cindeck, so:
F3 - $14k (without getting a deal)
SLOG - $3.6k (BHphotovideo)
Cinedeck - $8.5k
You will also need power for the deck.. not sure what that costs.
Anyway, $26.1k easy.
In Toronto I can not get the F3 for less, if anyone knows where... let me know
Why did you do SLOG upgrade if recording 422 on ki pro?
You dont need 444 dual link to shoot sLog, 10bit 422 is WAY more than enough. 10 bit luminance is more important than 444 color space. The video posted in my sLog thread is proof. God i wish you could see the prores files they look astounding, like 4k down rezed to 1080p.
Again, when making my equipment investment for Tstop Cinema, i budgeted a used MX, and i could have bought it, but i would have had to choose a different set of lenses. probably RPP's or CP1's and the glass is WAY more important than the camera in the sense that the iPanchros will be in service till i'm 70 years old..... Plus i would have needed a tower, Redrocket, blah blah... The truth is, the camera is as sharp as mx @ 1080p, had WAY more dynamic range, way better color reproduction, way less noise, is smaller, cheaper, and less of an initial investment. Plus, the "Obsolescence is Obsolete" is pretty much.. well obsolete, cause the Epic will eat and MX for lunch.
The market in NY is as follows, there is three tiers of jobs, the DSLR gigs, the F3 gigs and the Alexa/epic gigs. There is NO way a producer will pay epic alexa prices for a gig that needs that performance, but just doesnt have the budget, so long as an F3 exists. Not everything needs to be future proofed, and not everyhting is going to be screened in theatres. 4k is not a must right now, and wont be a must for another 3-4. in that time the F3 is the swissarmy knife, when the machete is too much and the plastic knife just wont do.
Thomas Kist
Active member
"when the machete is too much and the plastic knife just wont do. " see, you don't even need a camera to tell a story with pictures.
Hope that by the time you reach 70 and the Panchro's provide pension you can start on the big novel.
Hope that by the time you reach 70 and the Panchro's provide pension you can start on the big novel.
tom.wong
Well-known member
barely perceivable in acquisition yes, but actually grading it, you feel the difference right away. from a Colorist standpoint, imo, you feel a MAJOR difference. with you push color temp for example, the 422 reacts much more aggressively than the 444. and that's the difference in being able to save time in the grade, and also being able to get to really subtle color decisions, increasingly more and more important when you have to color match shots, have a thin line with skin tone you want, or even intense vfx shots where it's going through mutliple passes of compositing/cgi and you need to match it all up. there's a reason for everything, whether you need it or not is a different question, but the merits are def there.
sure i can probably match a 422 shot to a 444 shot 95% of the time, but the question is, how much longer will it take me? and how much can i do to either before it falls apart.
True, but 80% of productions don't need that accuracy. The ones that do are studio green screen where we can bring the tower, dual link 444 on tap, and in th field a cinedeck is readyto go.
starcentral
Veteran
C'mon guys, I neeeeeeeed 444 because its there. That's why.
Hong-Kong. 131 000 hkd for camera with no batteries and charger, 31 000 HKD for Slog upgrade. without batteries an charger, we are already talking 162 000 HKD- 20k USD. This price is supposedly with a 20% discount!
starcentral
Veteran
Ah so sony hk is finally returning your calls...