F3 or used Red One MX: pros and cons?

S

SPZ

Veteran
I have the option, for the same price point of a Sony F3 with Slog (over here, which is much more than what you pay in the US) , 2 batteries a charger and a nikon and a canon mount, to have a ready to shoot Red One MX with production pack and birger mount (and other important stuff like recording media). I regularly shoot guerrilla style and my work goes from indie projects such as this:

http://vimeo.com/27187442

To higher end productions like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoRYrjtqi7s

I am a single shooter, operator and director. Obvioulsy on the Fiction stuff I have a bigger team, but normally work solo. Can you F3 owners "sell" me on the F3 in this scenario? I'm obviously falling towards the Red One deal, but would like to hear F3 owners, prefereably ones with Red experience, to share their thoughts. I have been following the F3 forum with great interest and when I was decided to take the plunge, a friend intervened with this deal. A hard decision!

Thank you all,
 
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(cool new look on DVXuser!!! lol)

Who is your end customer/client? Will THEY benefit from the difference between the two cams? Will you benefit from the difference between two cams? Where will your footage be broadcasted? As for making a decision to shoot RAW/SLOG how good are you with color timing (not to be confused with color grading) and are you ready for that added time in your post workflow?

Between the two videos I wouldn't say the camera used mattered at all. A lot of what you see in higher production value stuff is moving shots using jibs, dollies, etc.. and more time spent in post editing, grading, cutting, inserting.. etc...

Only get the RED if you really really need 5k frames.
 
What is the difference between color timing and color grading? curious. DISCLAIMER: googling as we speak, but it's always better to hear from a person.
 
To be honest the terms are often used interchangeability. Color timing comes from the film days where images could be enhanced during the photo-chemical process of the negative. Colorists would then work to alter only specific parts of a scene in a film. Here's how I separate the meanings of the terms - not to say someone won't agree :D

Color grading (I probably should have just said 'grading' not color grading) refers to enhancing either the whole or only selective parts of an image in some way. It doesn't have to do anything with color necessarily, it could be you darken or lighting only parts of an image for example you bring out the clouds in your scene. Or, you create a mask around your subject and later the color or look of everything around him without affecting him, and you grade him separately or not at all. I think of grading as selective image manipulation whether it be re-exposing specific elements of a scene, or even re-coloring only certain parts of a frame. Think of the matrix look - you want some green tint, but you don't want green alien faces.

Color timing - I interchanged with the term color correction. For example especially outdoors in an uncontrolled environment between takes the clouds will move and the color temperature will actually shift periodically. Later in post, these scenes need to be color corrected to match each other. If you shoot RAW or SLOG you have the option to completely pick your color temerature after the fact, and I'm pretty sure with SLOG at least your white balance is fixed at 5600k so no matter what you will have to "color time" or "color correct" your footage later.
 
starcentral said:
Only get the RED if you really really need 5k frames.
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I am not sure I agree with this....
Having used both cameras (as an first AC) I have to say that the Red has much more than just image: build quality, menu set-up, configurability (if that is a word....), FPS (120 vs 60), etc.

I understand that "image is everything" but there are more things to think about. From an AC's point of view, the RED is leaps and bounds ahead of the F3.

That being said, I think that the F3 does shoot an incredible image, but so does the RED...


Now, I will agree with starcentral's point of production value not being solely about the camera and those things are arguably more important than the camera (to a certain extent)

Just my two cents.
 
I also worked with both cameras... if ya doing more EFP/studio, get the RED. If you like faster gorilla type setup or shoot a lot of ENG, get the F3.
 
JPM Photography said:
I am not sure I agree with this....
Having used both cameras (as an first AC) I have to say that the Red has much more than just image: build quality, menu set-up, configurability (if that is a word....), FPS (120 vs 60), etc.

I understand that "image is everything" but there are more things to think about. From an AC's point of view, the RED is leaps and bounds ahead of the F3.

That being said, I think that the F3 does shoot an incredible image, but so does the RED...


Now, I will agree with starcentral's point of production value not being solely about the camera and those things are arguably more important than the camera (to a certain extent)

Just my two cents.
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No you are right for sure, there are definitely more factors than frame size... good call.
 
Efexone said:
I also worked with both cameras... if ya doing more EFP/studio, get the RED. If you like faster gorilla type setup or shoot a lot of ENG, get the F3.
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Efexone hits an excellent point here as well: The RED in a VERY lightweight package can easily pass 20 lbs while the F3 can easily weight in under 10lbs (and can stay their easier because of handy things like internal NDs and smaller batteries meaning you *might* be able to get away without a mattebox) even with similar lenses.

While the additional 10lbs isn't the end of the world, I will say that, from experience, the support equipment (tripod, dolly, jib, steadicam) that goes along with that 10 lbs heavier camera adds up in weight and thus requires (or recommends) more crew to move it.

That being said, these heavier end support equipment costs significantly more as well. A recent Sony F3 shoot I ACed we used a smaller Sachtler tripod and, while I would by no means recommend have THAT small of a tripod under the F3, you certainly would not need to get something as intense as the OConner 1066 head (which I have used on several RED shoots with great pleasure). The cost difference can be several thousand dollars on the tripod alone.

Just more thoughts spurred on by Efexone.
 
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My earlier post disappeared. The OP asked that we point out the selling points of the F3. I hope the deletion isn't because they dislike honest discussion.

The F3 with S-Log has more dynamic range than the Red MX according to the SCCE and Ablecine tests. Extra dynamic range may save some shots if you've miscalculated.

Work flow and storage are issues to be dealt with on Red footage. Not insurmountable, but they do have to be taken into consideration if you are not used to dealing with Red footage.

The F3 is now the hot new camera at a lower price point. (Slight bragging rights.) The Epic is now the hot new camera at a higher price point. (Higher bragging rights.) Will the Red MX maintain its cache of bragging rights for your clients?
 
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For someone doing 1-man-band type shooting, I would probably have to go with the Sony over the Red, simply for the greater speed/ease of the F3's video-camera handling (and the weight differential).

The image out of both camera's is superb, so I'd imagine handling would be the bigger concern.
 
Thank you all for taking the time to reply to this. I know that there's not a clear better choice between the two. I just want to have a clearer picture of the pros and cons of each. Some were already said over here. i can think of some others, like:

Which one's stock footage will worth more? Slog 4:2:2 Prores or Red MX files?
Wich one will be more requested for possible rentals?
Which one will open doors for more clients? Why?

Please do keep the points coming. You're being a great help.

Sergio
 
I'd Do F3, just cause its lighter, for the run n gun shoots, but under better circumstances rises well to the occasion.

its just more flexible.
 
At the same given price, red mx is better in every way. That is if you like red colors, of course.

Red will be way more demanding in terms of supporting gear and accesossories and postproduction hardware.
F3 is almost ready to shoot with a minimal configuration, you dont even need a matte box, batteries run forever (red bricks don't), no cables needed (you always need 2-4 cables around when working with the red. Monitor, viewfinder, battery, hdd).

In terms of resolution red is obviously much better.
File sizes are also a huge difference, at the cost of a way more compressed codec on the sony, and only being 4.2.0 while red is basically uncompressed 444 once you resample down to 1080p.
The sony files (either mpeg2 or prores from an external recorder) are ready to edit in real time the moment you are done shooting.
Red files are not and will need a much mire powerfull computer.

Sony f3 shows aliasing while red footage does not have tgis issue.

In terms of sensitivity, red is about a stop slower in real terms since i like setting the red mx at iso1280 at least which translates to iso500-640 in real life. F3 is iso800.

Dr in the f3 is so much better. It is also allocated more evenly while on the red there is more info in the highloghts.

Btw red does only go up to 4.5k, not 5k.
 
Well, anyone working with both? Can you do single operator jobs like Documentaries with a Red, handheld? Can you shoot ENG with a RED, for example? I'm not asking if its more difficult, but if its possible or is anyone doing it?
 
Also want to thank JPM, Dennis, Macgregor, Timur, Duke M, Grug and the others for the excellent input so far.
 
SPZ said:
Well, anyone working with both? Can you do single operator jobs like Documentaries with a Red, handheld? Can you shoot ENG with a RED, for example? I'm not asking if its more difficult, but if its possible or is anyone doing it?
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Well it's possible in the same way that it is possible to shoot single operator with an imax camera. But no doubts the F3 is way way better at that and that is one of the reasons i much prefer the F3.
 
The red is more of a cinemastyle camera, not a run n gun camera as much as the F3. Also, a big deal would be that the Red has no built in ND filters, that adds extra hussle to have a mattebox and switching ND filters while running around and trying not to get them dirty. The F3 have really sweet internal ND filters that you easily switch on and off.

Sure the Red beats the F3 with the 5k image and a lot more space for CC in post, but I don't think that it would be the right thing for you and I doubt that the Red would give you that more and the end of the day when doing spontanious run n gun.
 
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