F3 or used Red One MX: pros and cons?

First, thank you all for taking the time on pointing out so many aspects to help my decision. I will also add what's in my head right now.

As you may or may not know, my deadline is First week of November the latest for this purchase. I need to at least have some experience with the workflow for an important shoot in the week of 23-28 November.

If I had more time, probably what I would do would be to, well, wait. Why? Because I know the EPIC-S (if it still exists, that is, with Red's everything can change policy) is the ideal camera for me at the price point. But it DOESN'T. So currently, the best option out there is obviously (new) the Sony F3. We are in a time of change, I asked dvxuser supremo contributor Barry Green and he gave me very interesting points to think about, and they absolutely make sense, but the truth is I'm in a deadline, and I really need to up my game.

The Red One MX option appeared because of a friend suggestion. Its a hell of a good price for a MX package, even though executed. But the points everyone stated are really good food for thought.

Over here, one key element is rentability of the camera, something I can coup my investment with, and since we have probably only 1 Red One in Macau, it would be easily rentable. Its a requested camera for many productions. The Sony F3, even with its superior imaging, its still viewed as a "prosumer" camera over here. So Rental rates, even requests are very low for it, and the type of clients renting it are more inexperienced, risking the possibility of damage and bad handling of gear.

All in all, for what I do, I agree that the most versatile camera would be the F3: its lightweight, my support gear from the HVX days work with it, its "fast" and produces beautiful full of latitude images. But the Red One is a High End camera, a "recognized" high end camera requested in many high end jobs.

The indie filmmaker in me thinks F3: I will probably shoot a lot more documentaries, footage with it than the Red One, and be much more spontaneous with it. The businessmen part of me says the Red One's footage will have more value for stock footage sale, for example, and will be requested more for high end rentals. It will also open doors for high end jobs, the few that open up here occasionally. The independent filmmaker in me tells me I do not need to worry with those since I have a steady income producer job and will not be doing 3rd party jobs, just my own independent films with this purchase. The other part says "But you never know tomorrow. "

An interesting turn of events just came up, with canonrumors talking about a Canon EF video camera coming soon:

http://www.canonrumors.com/

Can IBC bring any surprises for the very near future?

There's always the chance of a next best thing coming up. My deadline is very, very close. I have to confess I'm gearing towards the Red One MX with Birger, because the usability of Canon Glass is really a KEY factor for my purchase (like I said, 10K invested in L glass). But its really a hard decision.

Please keep the comments coming, your input has been very helpful and I would like to get more different perspectives on this. Thank you all,

Sergio
 
Sergio

I have never owned or used either camera, so I probably shouldn't even be sounding off here, but, one point you might want to consider is that IMO the RED one will likely be depreciating much faster in the next year or two as the Epic begins to ship in quantity. As the prices fall, the rental rates will likely follow and a year from now the F3 be in higher demand than the original RED one because of its versatility. The Epic may seriously crush the value of the RED one once they are out in the wild in quantity. How many RED owners are waiting on an Epic and plan to dump theircams when they get the email that their Epic is in?
 
Derbrocks, that is a good point, but another aspect for consideration is that we are talking Misterium X sensor on the Red One, which means that, taking out some small extras like extra frame rates and HDR, is the same image as a Red Epic-X. A clumsy, slower to boot up and heavy as h#ll Red Epic, but image wise should be very similar. I don't see it devaluing so much as, say, an F3 if Canon comes out with an internal recording Mpeg 2 4:2:2 APS-C EF camera, like canonrumors suggest (the 4:2:2 is not in the rumor there bu it should be a reality taking into account it is currently implemented in Canon prosumer video offerings), with the Technicolor Cinestyle profile, which is pretty close to what SLog is doing on the F3... I don't know, what do you guys think?
 
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I'd sit back for at least another month.... As Epic-X rolls, the R1-MX deals will be getting better and better.... what may look cheap this month might seem overpriced once stage 2 is out and people offload their old setups. I'm seeing some very complete MX packages under $20k.... once the selling really ramps up, I can see systems going for $15k
 
One thing that's often forgotten in these conversations is 5K images. No, I don't deliver in 5K, or 4K or even 2K EVER, but to have the flexibility of sizing in post and/or being able to shoot hand-held and stabilize the footage in Davinci and/or AE is certainly appealing. Of course, not appropriate for run-n-gun so much, but if you have to grade or color-match everything anyway, why not?

I'll be adding an EPIC asap!

redchart.png
 
SPZ said:
is the same image as a Red Epic-X. . .but image wise should be very similar. ... I don't know, what do you guys think?
Click to expand...

I recently moved from the EX1R to ... an original Red One as I find the image quality with 4K and raw suites my needs and desires. I came close to buying
an F3 but was influenced by opinions of photographers I respect...who transitioned to video from stills.

Everyone who has the EPIC says the image is not even in the same ballpark as the R1 MX ... different game completely. Quite similar image characteristics
but with different support ASICS and four years to improve hardware it does seem to them to be a much improved image. Whilst there may be a bit of justification
of purchase in this I do believe it is possibly true.

Dynamic range and beautiful colors...especially skin tones are the F3's strengths. Sony partially crippled it with no 442 50mBPS 10Bit internal codec to SxS cards.

Everyone has mentioned just how unwieldy a Red is .... I figure an F3 with Gemini and assorted gear for sLOG will be pretty impressive mass wise. Steve Gibby
has a reflection on hybrid EFP on the Red User site worth reading....a small EPIC with Zeiss ZF.2s and ND filters shooting raw to a 1.8 256GB SSD with Red Volt
batteries would be as small as the F3. Lens like the Nikon 28-300 zoom and you can run anywhere.

Bottom line is most cameras can give you a stunning image these days...pick one that matches your temperament and vision.

I will be moving to EPIC as soon as they let me into the queue.

Bob
 
Sergio if you decide to go with RED, I would not cripple your upgrade path to EPIC. RED One will drop in price as demand lessens and people move to EPIC. Like Stockfuel says, prices of RED One will drop and this is especially true as other manufacturers of prosumer video cameras catch up with many features (excluding 4k of course) that allow it to compete closer to RED One. I would not pay $20k for an executed RED One today, it doesn't make sense. If you need it today however, that is a different story.
 
Hi all,

Those are very valid points. Resolution is, in fact, the "key" that is making me lean towards the Red One MX. According to some sources, Arri will also jump to 5K (to be announced in IBC), and Sony is going 8K. So Resolution is going to define High End aquisition vs the rest. I'm sure that, at least for the next couple of years, anyone but Red will present a S35 camera at an acceptable price range with 4k or 5k recording. The only one I see doing this is maybe JVC, since they tend to be very innovative and risk taking. The res, like Sony, will do 8K for 100 000 dollars plus, Arri the Same.

Red just "forgot" about the Epic S in Jim Jannard's newest roadmap statement, which is also something to think about.

Docmore, how does it feel to work with the Red One compared to your EX1? Can you describe your experience? I don't seem to be able to find Steve Gibby's thread, can you share a link?


Starcentral, even if i bought a non executed Red One, I would still be paying a LOT for the Epic...

I've seen Timur's unbelievable SLOG tests on the other thread. You know, if it was to be a merely passionate decision from a filmmaker wanting to just shoot, I would get the F3. But I can't help but feel that its a risky investment, one I can't make every year!

Thank you all for keeping up with this.
 
Sergio,

My EX1R was a wonderful camera...pick it up and shoot...beautiful files that were so sharp and with the right profile had great color and depth.
Resolution was more than adequate for HD as good as almost anything out there. I was mainly shooting to Nanoflash at 100mBPS.

The zoom was a bit finicky in that at slow speed zooming it tended to surge...not the smoothest. I added a Varizoom controller that helped but
it appeared to be related to internal resistance in the lens itself. Faster zooming was less of a problem.

The EVF was great in good light but a bit hard to see in bright conditions...I initially added a Hoodman...then a Zacuto Jr finder ... finally a Zacuto EVF Pro.

My main complaint with the experience was not the camera as much as it was a mild persistent "mosquito noise" that appeared randomly in spite of my dialing
back on detail. This was not always there and I have some wonderful captures from the camera.

Red One is a bit more involved....shot this morning and took about 2 minutes to mount camera EVF and lens .... Big IDX batteries in a shoulder slung bag and off
to shoot. I prefer shooting with prime Zeiss ZF.2 lenses and a couple of Nikon primes...also the 14-24 zoom. No internal ND filters is a bit of a bother...Need external
variable NDs with step rings as all of the ZF.2s have different sizes...I guess I may send them to Duclos to standardize the fronts and declick the aperature.

Weight is a bit more with the R1 .... I do not have rails and batteries on camera nor matte box so it is maybe a couple of pounds as the Zeiss lenses are tiny.

Post shooting the process of ingesting files with Shotput Pro and working with REDCINE-X Pro is a treat...4K 16x9 RAW scaled to 1920x1080 H264 for viewing on web.
But the 4K files remains as the process is non-Destructive and is not baked in camera.

When you look at the expenses with Red remember that they are a company that stresses upgradability...R1 to R1MX path to EPIC MX .... Dragon somewhere over the
horizon.

Here are a couple of links:

http://reduser.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?10-EFP-ENG-and-RED

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?1091-EFP-amp-ENG-Definitions-and-Explanations

Please keep in mind that I shoot for myself....no deadlines no one else's agenda - I have those
in spades in other areas of my life. The R1 fills my needs in a non-production environment...it
seems to work for many who are shooting daily.

Bob
 
Bob,

That's exactly what I wanted to hear, thank you so much for taking your time to write up!
I think we are in a similar situation. I wouldn't use the RED in critical ENG situations, would keep using my old HD 1/3 CCD cameras. I would obviously try to fit my Red shoots to non time restrictive projects.

I'm gearing toward the MX Red now. The F3 is indeed fantastic but I'm having also a terrible local experience with Sony HK. I've been very poorly treated in my product enquiry, and have only received response from a 3rd party sales company and from a person I know that is on Sony's "inner circle" (part of Sony's big volume costumers). I really didn't like the "I don't know you, so I don't eve bother to reply to your enquiry" attitude I received. I've never been treated like this from Panasonic or JVC, for example.
 
Star, I am with you. I'm just going to plunk down the $ for the retail version. However, I'm a bit curious as to how they might handle the positioning of Epic M purchasers if/when there's another round of upgrades.
 
stockfuel said:
There is a bit of a storm on REDuser regarding people selling their MXs while waiting for the Epic-x stage 2.... you should check with the seller to see if he is still selling and maybe warn him (assuming he is stage 2).

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread...P-your-RED-ONE-and-get-EPIC-X-Stage-2-package
Click to expand...

Yep, seen that, and actually posted in that thread a bit concerned. However, it seems like there's something coming up soon http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?62979-Change.... Which again makes me hold my purchase decision for at least close to my deadline to see what happens...
 
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It was a strange affair.... I think that mess could and should have been cleared up a long time ago.

I personally know a couple of early stage-2ers who were pretty much were forced to sell up their beloved MX so they could afford an Epic-M and stay at the cutting edge, as they saw people with no previous RED connection jumping the line, so to speak.

It sounds like they will still get to keep their Epic-X place though, which is cool... but there has been alot of stress this weekend!
 
I think the EPIC S will change, also. First, a name change. From this very eventful weekend over at Reduser, from what I took from the cryptic Jim's posts is:

a: Name change
b: SPecs change
c: Modularity towards whole range, including Scarlet.
d: Price change (?)

For a, its because he chose to ignore the EPIC S, while at the same time saying "The camera you want is coming out later this year".

for b: "If anything changes, its for the better"

for c: "The good news is that if you buy into the Red system you won't get hurt".

for d: I don't know if it will be higher or actually lower. My own take is that the EPIC S became a Scarlet again. After my question concerning the Epic-S, Jim clearly said they were committed to bring the Scarlet, Red Ray and 4K projector. So with Jim confirming "The camera you want is coming later this year", it means, at least to my own guessing mind, its in the Scarlet line.

Now my only concern is if Line B "Change for the better" equals better specs or lower price. My hope is obviously both! :)
 
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That's a very good analysis. I don't think he'll risk undercutting his regular Epic-X sales with a full blown Epic-S (merely lower frame rates). It wouldn't surprise me if he dropped it back into the Scarlet line, dropped it to 3k and sold it for $17k to compete with the F3. That seems to accomplish what was implied.

The other question is when. I know guys that have been saying the Scarlet will be released "any time now" since 2008.

Canon is going to announce something pretty soon too.

With all that I still find the F3 to produce much more organic images than Red footage that I've seen. Of course that's subjective and might only be my opinion.
 
You know, Duke, I would love to have all the options of this "next gen S35 cameras" on the table right now. But I haven't. The F3 is the best deal one can have right now. I know that. Its an excellent camera. Timur just posted absolutely unbelievable stills that show immense latitude in the SLOG thread. Its really impressive. Anyone buying into the F3 is sure to get their money's worth.

However, If I had to choose between an EPIC-S or an F3, I would choose the Epic-S, not because of the resolution, but because of the constant support Red is giving to their costumers. Have you seen the new Redcine X Pro software they put out? I tried it, its a joy to use. They come up with this stuff all the time. Its good to feel that on the other side you have a bunch of guys committed to back you up. Sony has disappointed me. Yes, they are just companies, they are there to make money, but they are getting a big chunk of my money for their products. I feel much better knowing at least someone is listening and committed on the other side.

The good thing coming out from this weekend is that somehow I feel I shouldn't go with a used Red One MX. It was like this whole mess was to prevent me from getting one of those! :) It would've been clumsy, heavy, not very manageable for most single operator shoots I would face. I would still get it if the option was presented without the "Stage 2 executed" concern, but I want to see what comes out from these upcoming announcements...

I think IBC might bring some surprises...
 
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Also, you have different experience with Sony in the orient. The F3 is my third Sony camera. (I'm not a Sony fanboi, I had other cameras in between.) In the US their service has been good-great, and from what I hear so has Red's.
 
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