F3 or Scarlet: Which Camera Has a Higher Rental Value & Likelihood?

F3 or Scarlet: Which Camera Has a Higher Rental Value & Likelihood?

  • Sony F3

    Votes: 12 63.2%

  • Red Scarlet

    Votes: 7 36.8%
  • Total voters
    19
U

Unicorn Power

Member
I have narrowed down my search to just two cameras: F3 or Scarlet. I like both of these cameras for various reasons.

However, I'm also interested in each camera as an investment. Not so much to earn a profit, but at least to pay for itself and potentially get me on more jobs.

So my question is which of the two cameras will be more sought after in the rental market? I don't care if one can command a higher day rate than the other, so much as I care about which one will be rented more. I can imagine that many people would prefer to rent the F3 because it would probably be cheaper than a Scarlet, both in terms of rental but also in regard to downloading media, transcoding, etc... because all the Red sets that I have been on have required a DIT with an expensive Red Rocket package added to the rental fee...

That being said, there is a lot of hype around the Scarlet that I think will play a huge role in its rental demand. People want to say that they shot on Red, etc...

However, I'm worried that with all the hype, and the low price tag, the market here in NYC will become saturated with Scarlets in the next year, which would ruin the chances of renting it out on a consistent basis, even enough to pay for itself... I don't know many people who own F3s though so it seems like I could rent it out more frequently, at least enough that it ends up paying for itself...

I would appreciate anyone's thoughts or advice.



Unicorn Power
 
Here in DC the F3 is requested quite frequently on the jobs that I do and the RED is around. But they are slightly different as you mentioned above in terms of the actual cost to rent that being said you should be able to make money with either of them. A lot of clients that I deal with could careless about 4K and high frame rates because they just want to shoot talking heads. Or they want to shoot a PSA that is destined for the web, then there are other clients who want the prestige of going 4K and the flexibility it entails. If you do these types of things it just boils down to which camera would fit better into your workflow. At my company we basically shoot Xdcam so the F3 is the choice when we want high DR and shallow DOF. However I would love if we got the Scarlet, but it just doesn't make sense for what the majority of our clients want.
 
Let's just say, my F3 is what paid for my scarlet.... ad the F3 continues to earn with great haste.

Just used the F3 for the first time on a paying gig in 444 to a cinedeck on a "NDA secretive" big. Budget shoot, and the DIT was simply amazed. He said the color was amazing. Not amazing for the price, or for the size... just amazing period.

It reaches up to the top, and can reach down to everyday talking heads. Its flexibility is what makes it so profitable. The scarlet is kind of stuck "at the top".
 
TimurCivan said:
Let's just say, my F3 is what paid for my scarlet.... ad the F3 continues to earn with great haste.

It reaches up to the top, and can reach down to everyday talking heads. Its flexibility is what makes it so profitable. The scarlet is kind of stuck "at the top".
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Thanks TimurCivan!

I'm glad to hear that it worked out so well for you. I see what you mean about being stuck at the top with the Scarlet...

Let me ask you something: how many days a month do you think one can realistically expect to rent out an F3 in NYC? And at what rate?

Do you rent out the Scarlet too? How often and at what rate?
 
Dafilman21 said:
Here in DC the F3 is requested quite frequently on the jobs that I do and the RED is around. But they are slightly different as you mentioned above in terms of the actual cost to rent that being said you should be able to make money with either of them. A lot of clients that I deal with could careless about 4K and high frame rates because they just want to shoot talking heads. Or they want to shoot a PSA that is destined for the web, then there are other clients who want the prestige of going 4K and the flexibility it entails. If you do these types of things it just boils down to which camera would fit better into your workflow. At my company we basically shoot Xdcam so the F3 is the choice when we want high DR and shallow DOF. However I would love if we got the Scarlet, but it just doesn't make sense for what the majority of our clients want.
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Thanks for the reply. You make a lot of sense.

I work on just about everything, so my network is all over the place. Ultimately, I would hope to not have a target demographic in terms of rentals. I would hope to rent it to whoever wanted it whether it be broadcast, commercial, feature or indy... I feel like there should be enough diversity of work here in NYC to support such an endeavor...

I had originally considered the FS100, as I find it to be an excellent camera as well. However, I like the F3 more and I feel that its higher ticket price will limit the saturation of the market. I hope I'm right...

As I mentioned before, making a profit is secondary to paying off the camera. I'm not looking to pimp it out at any and all costs. Besides, I want it for personal use most of all, but it's not like I'm shooting my own stuff 7 days a week or anything. Thus, I'd want the flexibility of a camera that I can rent out during downtime.

Thanks again for your response.
 
The F3 is also proven, tried, and true. It's been around about 8 months now, I think, and it's been used for everything. It's also a very simple camera, and anyone who's used Sony's small-chip cameras can quickly pick up an F3 and go to town. The menu and buttons are basically the same as an EX1/EX3, too.

With the problems the Epic has had, I wouldn't be surprised if the Scarlet has hiccups, or at least worries people enough to choose something else.

They are very different cameras, though. Affordable 4K is just going to mean a lot more to some people. But if you're looking for a sure camera to make money off of, refer to the horse's mouth - aka Timur :)
 
There is something to be said about the ease of use of the F3. If you have used the Xdcams before it you should be able to get around the F3 just fine. And Timur explained what I was trying to say perfectly, with F3 you can go shoot something simple and shoot all day on SXS and a couple of batteries. That it is possible on the Scarlet but it will cost you a whole lot more. Honestly if you don't need 4K I would choose the F3 it doesn't give some people that deer in headlights feeling. It looks a functions for the most part like a video camera that people are mostly familiar with. Either way I think you should be able to make money with both. I wish I was as blessed as Timur and could have both! Just gotta keep pushing!
 
Dafilman21 said:
There is something to be said about the ease of use of the F3. If you have used the Xdcams before it you should be able to get around the F3 just fine. And Timur explained what I was trying to say perfectly, with F3 you can go shoot something simple and shoot all day on SXS and a couple of batteries. That it is possible on the Scarlet but it will cost you a whole lot more. Honestly if you don't need 4K I would choose the F3 it doesn't give some people that deer in headlights feeling. It looks a functions for the most part like a video camera that people are mostly familiar with.
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Yes, that is one of the primary reasons I like the F3, it's so user friendly and reliable.

No, I certainly do not need 4K. I just like the post-production flexibility of shooting in RAW, but from what I understand, the F3 is very flexible in post as well. Can anyone comment on that?

How is editing F3 footage compared to Scarlet? I mean, if I over/underexpose a shot, which is easier to correct, which has more options and leeway and is generally more forgiving?
 
Jordan Scott Price said:
The F3 is also proven, tried, and true. It's been around about 8 months now, I think, and it's been used for everything. It's also a very simple camera, and anyone who's used Sony's small-chip cameras can quickly pick up an F3 and go to town. The menu and buttons are basically the same as an EX1/EX3, too.

With the problems the Epic has had, I wouldn't be surprised if the Scarlet has hiccups, or at least worries people enough to choose something else.

They are very different cameras, though. Affordable 4K is just going to mean a lot more to some people. But if you're looking for a sure camera to make money off of, refer to the horse's mouth - aka Timur :)
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You saying i have a funny looking mouth? ;)

LiamR said:
Does the F3 shoot 50/60fps at 1080 or 720??
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720p on camera, 1080p off camera to a recorder.
 
In purely mathematical terms way back when it use to be 1% per day of the total cost of the gear that way in 100 days you pay off the gear. But today's rental prices have to be determined on technical life expediencie of the gear (TLE), so go figure. :)
 
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LiamR said:
Does the F3 shoot 50/60fps at 1080 or 720??
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I'm not in PAL land, but the F3 definitely does shoot 1080p 60fps to an external recorder.

With the first Red One cameras it was a couple of years before they firmware was really stable. I've heard of instability problems with some, not all, Epic cameras. Philip Bloom sent his Epic back for a refund due to issues on a post beta version and cancelled his order on a Scarlet. Jim Jannard apologized to Philip after some less understanding words from a higher up in the Red company. You need reliability if people are paying a bunch of people to get a job done.

I'm not saying Epics or Scarlets are bad, but early adopters should be aware of Red history.
 
I'm purchasing an Epic with confidence. However, I would say the F3 is a more versatile tool currently for most jobs that are not narrative/fiction driven. You can always attach a Pix240 and record the HDSDI out of the Scarlet/Epic just like what you would do with the F3. HOWEVER, it would only be 4:2:2 vs 4:4:4 on the F3 (then again, you would need the very expensive Gemini which is not that portable, at least compared to the pix and the samurai). On the other hand, if you go Epic, you will be able to get 1080P 300FPS on a PIX240, for example. But the Epic is a different "animal" set at a different pricepoint.I would definitely wait for the C300 and see where it will be priced, though. Because low light is not as good on the Reds vs the F3 and the C300. A concern for guerrilla filmmaking. Not a deal breaker if you can light scenes, and if you can accept noise in the image (doesn't look that bad on the Red, looks like film grain).
 
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Way I see it, I don't want to ever tell a director "I can't get this shot" because of a stupid technical thing. I like having the most flexible camera system possible.

Hence my allegiance to the HVX200. It dd everything, and it did it well.
 
TimurCivan said:
Way I see it, I don't want to ever tell a director "I can't get this shot" because of a stupid technical thing. I like having the most flexible camera system possible.
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Agree 100%.

That's why, on projects I've shot lately, I pitch to the producer to budget in an F3. :) I don't always win, though.

Hell, I'm using an F3 for pick-up on a short I did with the Epic because I know how damn good the image is from that beast. I think the F3 is even more faithful with skin tones than the Epic.

It's interesting, though. There will eventually be a convergence of the two schools of camera thought - the 5K+ sensor that outputs a raw image for all the work to be done in post; the 5K+ sensor that downscales to 1080p in-camera and writes to a direct-to-edit format. The best resolution of film and the best digital workflow will come together in one simpler camera. But, until then, I wish I could own both types. Thankfully, I can rent!
 
Jordan Scott Price said:
That's why, on projects I've shot lately, I pitch to the producer to budget in an F3. :) I don't always win, though.
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Now there is sacrilege that you'll never see on Reduser or Scarletuser, that you budget an F3 to pick up shots you can't get with a Red camera. But hey if I need super slowmo I'll budget a Red. Hey, pick the best camera for the job.
 
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