F3 or Scarlet: Which Camera Has a Higher Rental Value & Likelihood?

F3 or Scarlet: Which Camera Has a Higher Rental Value & Likelihood?

  • Sony F3

    Votes: 12 63.2%

  • Red Scarlet

    Votes: 7 36.8%
  • Total voters
    19
Epics are expensive. Plain and simple. Mind as well shoot on alexa.

(which I recently used for the first time, and let me tell you.... Everything you hear about how amazing it is is absolutly true)
 
TimurCivan said:
Epics are expensive. Plain and simple. Mind as well shoot on alexa.

(which I recently used for the first time, and let me tell you.... Everything you hear about how amazing it is is absolutly true)
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I'm trying desperately to get one for a project I'm shooting in March. Here's to hoping!
 
Jordan Scott Price said:
It all comes down to money :)
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It always comes down to money. Notice how many people who said Epic crapped out on them or boned them on a shoot are running to get a Scarlet? If Epic boned them and it cost 15K nobody would care. As far as the RED kinks, sure, they're dangerous... too bad it doesn't matter to the majority of the mid to lower sector. THey'll shoot with it anyway, just to say I shot 4K.

All you have to do is look on at REDuser and on these boards to see which camera's gonna take all of your rentals. People undercutting with Scarlet, Epic prices dropping... if you don't own a Scarlet you're not paying off your camera any time soon. All people see is 4K, irregardless of how the the cam's not all that useful for slow mo (MX wasn't either, which is why people rented Phantoms.)

Jury's still out on C300.

For the record, I do not own. My opinion is based on years of ownership, however, and shooting RED ritually.

Think undercutting and rental rates were bad for nobody private owners before? Wait til 2012.
 
Kholi said:
IAs far as the RED kinks, sure, they're dangerous... too bad it doesn't matter to the majority of the mid to lower sector. THey'll shoot with it anyway, just to say I shot 4K.

All you have to do is look on at REDuser and on these boards to see which camera's gonna take all of your rentals. People undercutting with Scarlet, Epic prices dropping... if you don't own a Scarlet you're not paying off your camera any time soon. All people see is 4K, irregardless of how the the cam's not all that useful for slow mo...

Think undercutting and rental rates were bad for nobody private owners before? Wait til 2012.
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That's the thing, I don't have any illusions about profiting from the rental. I too agree that within the next couple years, rental rates are going to hit rock bottom due to the influx of relatively cheap 4K cameras. Just about anyone can put a Scarlet on a credit card and charge bare bone rates that the rental houses won't be able to compete with. But of course, that isn't going to happen over night. It will take time. There is still a long back order on Scarlets...

I'm just hoping that I can rent it out enough to make back my investment. Ultimately, I want the camera for my own projects. The F3 and Scarlet are virtually the same price once you factor in all the upgrades and gear. I mean, the S-Log firmware update for the F3 is $4,000, plus in order to record the actual 4:4:4, I think you have to get the Ki Pro with is another $3,000 or the Gemini which is $5,000... yikes!
 
More annoying questions, I really want to get an F3, because I have an FS100 and love it and I think the F3 is a great next step! But I shoot 90% at 50/60p and don't particually want to spend an extra $4k on S-Log and then $5k on an external recorder, doesn't make sense to me why the FS100 does in-camera 1080/60p and the F3 doesn't? is there a firmware update in the near future to enable it in-camera? Excuse the ignorance...
 
The fs100 has a different internal codec that can do 108060p.

The f3 can do it. But only over dual link.
 
Unicorn Power said:
That's the thing, I don't have any illusions about profiting from the rental. I too agree that within the next couple years, rental rates are going to hit rock bottom due to the influx of relatively cheap 4K cameras. Just about anyone can put a Scarlet on a credit card and charge bare bone rates that the rental houses won't be able to compete with. But of course, that isn't going to happen over night. It will take time. There is still a long back order on Scarlets...

I'm just hoping that I can rent it out enough to make back my investment. Ultimately, I want the camera for my own projects. The F3 and Scarlet are virtually the same price once you factor in all the upgrades and gear. I mean, the S-Log firmware update for the F3 is $4,000, plus in order to record the actual 4:4:4, I think you have to get the Ki Pro with is another $3,000 or the Gemini which is $5,000... yikes!
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You are in an awesome position, then. If you don't have to make any money back then the world is yours. I'd probably hang out til I saw more from the C300, because either way you aren't getting a Scarlet until March or April of next year unless you were on the early bird list.

I can't speak on the F3, if I had to use a 5D or an F3 I would probably use a 5D. And, you do need S-Log and an external recorder to make the cam worthwhile. I hear ya.
 
Kholi have you ever used an F3?

In log its much more "Alexa" or "R3d", than sxs....

All my colorists love it.

In sxs however, its more of an Ex3 w/ letus ultimate....
 
Just one more comment to Kholi regarding his earlier post saying the F3 has excessive aliasing. I thought about it further and realized what he is talking about, although its not true aliasing. The F3 does over sharpen and will produce the rough edge artifact that looks like aliasing if left in default mode. (I laughed when Kholi said he'd pick a 5D, which does have true aliasing.)

An experienced operator will turn detail down to between -15 and -17 (some people turn it off entirely but look before you choose). If detail is below -20 and you loose resolution.

If you go -17 on the detail and increase aperture +25 and frequency +20 there is no added sharpening artifact that looks like aliasing. The default setting on detail adds a dark edge, while aperture does not, but still sharpens a bit. Frequency boosts the small details.

Aliasing type artifacts in F3 footage tells me the operator needs some more time with the camera. (This is what I've always seen of the true hazard of renting any camera.)
 
I'm not saying that this what Kholi sees, but lower resolution monitors also show what Duke is saying. Even on my 42" Panasonic 1080 LED it shows it if I play back at 8bit rather than 10bit.
I film everything ProRes HQ so I don't know if thing recorded to the sxs 420 8bit displays the same.
 
TimurCivan said:
Kholi have you ever used an F3?

In log its much more "Alexa" or "R3d", than sxs....

All my colorists love it.

In sxs however, its more of an Ex3 w/ letus ultimate....
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I haven't tried it with a Gemini but have had a chance to toy with footage from a Ki Pro + S-Log setup and I am not a fan. Aside from the aliasing, the image--to me, is as thin as tracing paper. No amount of grading can get rid of it, but perhaps adding some CineGrain might.

THat's inherent in all Sony cameras, to me. F35 has the same thin, artificial look.

Duke M. said:
Just one more comment to Kholi regarding his earlier post saying the F3 has excessive aliasing. I thought about it further and realized what he is talking about, although its not true aliasing. The F3 does over sharpen and will produce the rough edge artifact that looks like aliasing if left in default mode. (I laughed when Kholi said he'd pick a 5D, which does have true aliasing.)

An experienced operator will turn detail down to between -15 and -17 (some people turn it off entirely but look before you choose). If detail is below -20 and you loose resolution.

If you go -17 on the detail and increase aperture +25 and frequency +20 there is no added sharpening artifact that looks like aliasing. The default setting on detail adds a dark edge, while aperture does not, but still sharpens a bit. Frequency boosts the small details.

Aliasing type artifacts in F3 footage tells me the operator needs some more time with the camera. (This is what I've always seen of the true hazard of renting any camera.)
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Well, even Timur says that aliasing occurs in fabrics etc. He's spent more time with it than most people, obviously. It doesn't take much to see it, and you can't do anything about the aliasing that shows up in wides on sharp edges. For instance, vehicle grills or buildings, so on and so forth.

Scarlet won't have that. C300 might not either, but jury is still out.

The choice in the 5D over F3, though, is because of how thin the F3 image looks to my eyes. And how much the S-Log + Gemini setup costs to rent in the first place. (even if I could get it very very cheap).

Douglas Villalba said:
I'm not saying that this what Kholi sees, but lower resolution monitors also show what Duke is saying. Even on my 42" Panasonic 1080 LED it shows it if I play back at 8bit rather than 10bit.
I film everything ProRes HQ so I don't know if thing recorded to the sxs 420 8bit displays the same.
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It's apparent no matter what monitor you view it on, to me. But, that doesn't mean it's a tolerable level for most people. That's just me, personally.
 
Jordan Scott Price said:
What is a "thin" image, Kholi?
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It lacks any kind of character, to me. It was something I disliked about the EX1/3 as well. Even with 35mm Adapters, it still looked hyper "fake". Or, I guess hyper digital. Yeah, you could easily add grain in post, so maybe that would help but I've not seen any examples of that or had the change to do it, personally.

Compare F3 footage to Ikonoskop DII footage, or 5K footage down to 1080/2K, or Alexa footage. The F3 is definitely Sony built, just exhibits an overall plastic feel.

Lowlight + S-Log is crazy clean, though.
 
TimurCivan said:
Its flexibility is what makes it so profitable.
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I think it's going to be a race to the bottom with rates on the Scarlet, just as it was with the Red One.

There will be a ton of half-complete packages all competing for low-budget jobs, and the rates will just sink. There will be too many Scarlets out there, and you will have to fight for the few real jobs that come your way. That is, unless you are in a smaller market with less cameras.

The F3, so far, seems to be holding it's rates pretty well. The lowest I've seen is $350 for body only, which of course turns into the same $500-ish with batts and media. Add lenses, AKS, and you get to $800+. Very few Scarlets will get rates like that, I think.

I owned a Red from Sept 2008 to May 2010, and had a VERY complete package (Ocon 2575, Arri MB and FF) and despite my producer/PM friends who worked on much bigger jobs than I did, I was still only getting jobs calling me with $600 in for camera. When MX came around, and it was more or less "pay 6300 or get left behind", I decided to get out.

Now, 16 months later, all those Red One MXs are getting dumped for $10K, the price of a Scarlet. Go look. This only works for the folks are are REALLY keeping their cameras working, like 50 days a year.

Red seems to be a never-ending path of 'what's next' promises, half of which never come to fruition, and in the meantime only 75% functional compared to what they say it "will be". By the time they finish up the functionality and polish on the products that are shipping, they're already on to the next thing.

[edit: in the end, what happens in the rental market I think has to do with, sorry, overly simplified personality types who prefer one type of gear over another. Red users tend to be young (or relatively inexperienced), early adopters, and ok with untested hardware in pursuit of a technically superior image. Where your Sony buyer might be more pragmatic, more concerned about the bigger picture of how the camera fits into their business, and possibly more likely to stick to their guns with rates. Sorry for bringing stereotypes into the discussion, but there seems to be some truth to this in my experience]
 
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Agree with Nate. Although as of pre Epic M I was still getting 1100 a day for the MX package I managed, it's gonna get really nasty soon.

My friends have mxs that they still rent and have paid off, but they get really good jobs, features etc. Also still getting solid Epic rates and constantly working.

Good thing for rental houses, the surplus of camera bodies immediately means a shortage on accessories. Prices for accessories go up n

Go and see how much a 2060 rents for now in LA, compare it to four months ago.
 
Yes, its all about personal preference and perception. I see the F3 footage as looking very Alexa-like, especially with S-Log. Great depth and rich colors.

My perception of Red footage is all resolution but flat and looking video-ish. Probably bad grading that I've seen has influenced that too. But we're all entitled to our opinions as long as everyone understands that they are our personal opinions.
 
Image quality wise, I think the F3 is one of the most accurate, beautiful cameras I've used. I too find it the "alexa lite". Smooth, subtle, dreamy.

I like the "RED" look. Its like a moving dslr. Vibrant, bright, sharp, and vivacious.

Its two different ends of the spectrum. I'd never shoot a hype williams video on alexa/F3.... just like id never shoot a english countryside period piece on red.

Different strencgths.... I would however shoot both of those projects on my cookes. :)
 
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