F3: F3 for docs??

KINOKS

KINOKS

Well-known member
I'm seriously considering buying a used F3 for my next doc. Mostly they are a mix of run and gun and talking heads. Usually have a crew of 4.
For those of you that do shot docs with the F3 how does it work out for you? Do you have a light rig and use a zoom lens or do you
go more heavy and maybe even use primes? I see my self using primes only for interviews other than that I think I would mostly need a
zoom. What lens or what kind of set up would suite me? Till now I've used on docs only all in one cams but want to switch it up for a more
cinematic picture plus I could use this setup for short films. I think it would work out, but I'm still considering going the ENG shoulder cam route...

Thx
Br
S
 
I suggest renting one to see how it works for you. If you expect to do any run and gun hand-held shooting, you're going to need quite a few extra accessories to make it workable.
 
There are many options for configuring the camera, but I think it's pretty much universally agreed by every F3 owner I know that the camera can't be used for handheld right out of the box.
 
The Easyrig is the way to go if you have a LOT of run and gun to do. You also mentioned talking heads so you'll need to judge the amount of time you'll be holding the camera for your shooting style.

Otherwise, here is what I think you'll need to examine:

1) Shoulder pad - all the rigs with the shoulder pad behind the camera are wrong. You can't hold those steady for more than a few minutes. You want a shoulder pad that puts the center of gravity up near the front hinge of the LCD. And the shoulder pad had to be adjustable to balance different weight lenses, etc. You want to balance the camera on your shoulder because you're arms can't take the strain long term.

2) EVF or Monitor - Forget the evf and LCD on the camera. Those are just for using the menu. You need to get the weight back on your shoulder so you need a monitor on an articulated arm or evf that's out in front. If you use something like the TVLogic monitor (very nice and has extra tools you really need like wave form, better focus assist, etc.) then you'll need (at minimum) something like the Hoodman Red monitor hood. I sometimes throw duvatene over my head anyway so I can see the monitor without reflection. That's why many go with an EVF instead if shooting outdoors. However, a diopter (lens) on an EVF gives a greater chance of burning the screen. Be careful.

3) Berkey plate - Don't use the holes on top of the camera to mount anything that's long on them. The leverage will rip them out of the camera. A Berkey cheese plate will spread the weight and save your camera.

4) Rails and grips - You need rails to mount stuff on and there are a bunch of different ones, but they have to work with the shoulder pad. Also, don't judge grips by what they cost. Judge by whether they adjust to a comfortable position. Comfort for your particular arm/shoulder configuration. Personally I have one set of cheap indian grips that are just a little longer and I love them over my expensive grips even though they only adjust on one axis.

5) Switching from hand held to sticks - A way to remove the shoulder pad and mount onto a tripod quickly will save you a lot of production time. Some shoulder pads are designed to remove easily, but can be pricey. I put my camera on a Manfroto dove tail quick release. Then I mounted bottom halves of the quick release on my tripod, the shoulder pad, the steady cam. Now I can change the mount to any of them in seconds. (And it was relatively cheap.)
 
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Everything Duke pointed out above is right, along with an external recorder you are talking about some serious money; however I just checked eBay on F3 prices and for what they have been selling for, these cameras have really dropped from their list price. IMHO you could pick up a still great camera for maybe 50 cents on the dollar. I guess the one caveat is make sure the camera checks out, look for dust on the filters, bent or broken frame from mounting things on top without a plate are just a few things I can think of.
 
Here is my experience in shooting docs with F3:

1) basic set up: camera body, Berkey plate, SmallHD dp4 evf (evf mount "evolution" went from Noga arm, to Edelkrone mount and now solid camera...), base plate with 15mm rods (started with Zacuto, now on TrustMT and probably wiil end with 3ality)...

2) lens kit: optitek nikon mount, BASIC LENS, Nikon 17-55/2.8 , "sit down" lens for interviews Tokina 50-135/2.8, "wider than wide" Tokina 11-16/2.8, and then for cut always and b roll on the sticks, Nikkor 50-300/4.5 ED; if I have room, I pack a few Contax primes, just for extreme situations and back up for zooms: 21/2.8 Distagon, 50/1.4, 135/2.8...

3) shoulder mount handles: cinevate, Follow focus: TrustMT. Nothing fancy, but does the job. Matte box: genus wide angle model (small, takes 4x4 filters that I use a lot from film days and did I say it's small!?)...

4) extra monitor for producer/director, only if requested: Liliput 7in. Or if needed, Pix240 for external recording ( and producer's monitoring)...

5) wireless sound packs, on the top mount.

6) battery power: swit "bricks"

This kind of set up allows me to go from sticks to shoulder in no time. the camera is packed in a Petrol bag with all parts attached except the evf. Once out of the bag, evf slides on solid camera rail in 10seconds and I am ready to go...

I am in process of getting 3ality technica body armor for my F3. This will change a layout a bit. It will slim down the camera body and make it more "mobile" (no worries about damn eye finder being broken!), it will loose hand grip and zoom rocker (that I never ever used!) but it will increase a total weight of the kit (oh well, can't win on everything,). It will also allow to camera getting packed more compact when air traveling as actual size of the body will be less once 3ality top handle is removed (with 3 screws)...

I hope this helps... Love Slovenia! Been there many times for skiing when growing up. Even been to Army in Logatec, outside Ljubljana... Srecno!
 
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I'll second Steve on the Optitek Prolock, and a wide lens makes hand held look more stable (you probably already know that). My favorite for hand held is the nikon 17-35mm F2.8 because its both a great lens and has a manual aperture ring with no barrel distortion.
 
Going back to original question, when shooting docks usually requires traveling short and long distances. My main issue is packing my kit as small as possible but at the same time having ALL essentials to deliver nice image (and sound sometimes). One of the challenges is to set up a core system (camera and lens) to as compact size as possible... Shooting this kind of project is specific to the point that you simply can not have any elaborate "rig" with all kinds of add ons as that is just silly shooting docs. It is hell to pack and unpack, set up and break at the end of the shoot. And usually, you have to do that few times with I one shooting day. And then, showing up with some "crazy a$$" calamity of camera rails and cage etc. can cause discomfort of your subject and result in project not getting what needed on the day of shooting. So, think a lot how to put the kit together to suits your needs and at the same time fulfills all above...
 
Tata Steva said:
Love Slovenia! Been there many times for skiing when growing up. Even been to Army in Logatec, outside Ljubljana... Srecno!
Click to expand...

Haha really? Yeah we have lot's of snow, especially this year. It's still 0 degrees here!

mcbob said:
Here's an article written on that very subject, by someone with much experience:

http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/cinema-veacuteriteacute-with-the-sony-pmwf3
Click to expand...

Great! I forgot that Bourdaine is shot on the F3! Nice!

Okey, so you're all basically saying this:
- a nice shoulder pad (was thinking 3ality but can it move front to back for stability and can it be used for sticks?)
- handles
- V mount for stability on the back together with a recorder
- EVF (I was thinking TVlogic)
- Berkley plate (I saw the 3ality armour though...it looks great! So I'm thinking this might be it.)
- Follow focus
- Matte box

I really want to go as easy as I can. So an EVF, a shoulder pad, some small handles (maybe even just one on the right side??), V lock with a hyperdeck2 stuck together (I think I saw Denis had them stuck together?) and that's it. I don't want a matte box. As for the lenses is there a realistic option for using something that has push to focus? Going all manual is kinda scary for this kind of work:) And I don't want to carry more than 3 lenses with me -
I don't want to change lenses all day long, so maybe even 2 lenses would be enough. One general lens (it doesn't have to be all that wide) and something more on the long end. They don't really have to be super wide and with my wishes I know this isn't realistic anyway.
I gather that all of you mostly use only manual lenses? How does this work out? Do you have time for this, do you lose some shots because of it?
I was looking at the C100 just for the sake of using EF lenses, but then I actually tried it and although I liked that I was able to use AF I didn't like
manually focusing with them because of the short travel distance of the focus ring.

Dang I have to research this a lot more. I really need to put together a light, versatile rig, if I won't be able to do this I'll go the ENG route (PMW350).
And I'll definitely have to try it out before, but I have a problem: I'm in small country called Slovenia, how many people do you think have the F3 hahaha!
so trying it out is basically a no-go.
 
I've spent some time trying to adapt a not very doc friendly camera to a system that works OK for docs. Shape 7000 good system for tripod & shoulder mount, but the beautifully handles are very heavy and placed too low, so I have an Ergocine Aaton style handgrip system that attaches to the front rods. These work ok but need to extend out another inch. I have an Alphatron - EVF an absolute necessity in my opinion, and the Solid system is great, but the Berkey top plate system prevents getting the finder close enough to the camera body, so we are machining a new titanium plate that allows the Solid dovetail to move in almost an inch. Power via an AB plate on the back, with a recorder on the inner side. Trew Audio makes a great power dist. box that has around 5 12V outputs and a single on/off switch. It's light and well-made. I had bought a Gemini in Sept. with the expectation that they would deliver on the promised Oct. '12 Dnx codec, however this has failed to materialize and I see no evidence that it's coming, now or ever. Kind of frustrating given thatboth BMD and Atomos both offer compressed codecs for a fraction of the cost of the Gemini. Now I have a really nice $6K monitor (Gemini) and a $327 recorder -BMD Shuttle, which seems to work fine - I get about 600 minutes of Dnx from a single SSD. I use the Sony zoom which is surprisingly light, although quite bulky. It is excellent optically and is the only lens avaialable with a wide focal range. The autofous is slow but very accurate. I really don't even notice the ramping unless I'm looking for it. All this, built, fits in a Portabrace case for shooting, and breaks down for air travel into an ABS fitted case. I've got the Lectrosonics dual SR receiver for wireless and a 416 in a shockmount on the top. Everything a compromise - the new F's solve many problems, but are slightly larger and a few pounds heavier when equipped with a similar gear set. Many fewer cables, however, which would be greatly appreciated, but I'm so far into the F3 that a 55 isn't in the future.
 
Barons, great writ up!
Any pix of your Ergocine handles on F3?
do you have full set with ball on the opposite side of handle?
thanks!
 
Is there an option to have rec/stop button on the front handle? I was thinking having the left hand on the FF and the zoom and the right hand on the handle which would have a strat/stop button. with a light enough lens does anybody think that this is doable?
 
KINOKS said:
Is there an option to have rec/stop button on the front handle? I was thinking having the left hand on the FF and the zoom and the right hand on the handle which would have a strat/stop button. with a light enough lens does anybody think that this is doable?
Click to expand...

I would love to have someone be able to tell me I'm wrong but I don't know of any reasonable stop start buttons because of the complicated remote system used on the F3. The port has lots of pins and my recollection was it operated by electronic pulse code so the remote can control lots of things. The net result is no cheap stop/start buttons. :( There was a box for $4.5k or something.

[EDIT: I think this is it. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/330551-REG/Sony_RMB750_RMB_750_Remote_Control_Unit.html ]

If someone finally developed a simple cheap one, tell me and I'll buy it. I don't know why they couldn't put in a simple LANC port. If Sony developed the F3 for Indie producers as they said, did they really think an Indie was going to spend $4,500 on a remote? Or that we wouldn't want a stop start button.

One option is to velcro the IR remote to the handle, but that's pretty clunky and probably unreliable. The IR won't be pointing at the IR sensor on the camera.

Here's a DIY thought:
On the old HV20 (which also didn't have a LANC) we used to open up the IR remote and remove the IR LED. Then solder an 1/8" phone jack in it's place. Then take a short cable with 1/8" male and female plugs, cut off one plug and solder the IR LED on the end plus some shrink wrap. You mount the LED near the front of the camera with velcro, gaffers tape or zip tie. You can put an 1/8th inch extension of any length in between. I don't know how well it would work on a hand grip, but for a crane it certainly beats spending $4.5k on a remote.

Here's one I did six years ago and I don't think it looks ghetto.
RemoteLEDHardwired.jpg

A replacement remote is only $10.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-PMW-F3...045?pt=US_Remote_Controls&hash=item3ccf25c635
 
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KINOKS said:
Is there an option to have rec/stop button on the front handle? I was thinking having the left hand on the FF and the zoom and the right hand on the handle which would have a strat/stop button. with a light enough lens does anybody think that this is doable?
Click to expand...
what about programming the assign button 4 to start/stop recording?
 
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