F3 & External Recorder Possibilities

C

C.A.Magid

Active member
There is a lot of news, information and buzz about new external recorders. There also seems to be a lot of assumptions or hopes regarding how these will work in conjunction with F3s.

Ki Pro Mini, Sound Devices Pix240 and Gemini appear to be the most interesting. There are others like Cinedeck and Sony SR-R1 which are more than up to the job with a lot of great features but are heavy.

My real concern is off speed workflow, responsiveness to command, in use feedback and reliability. Secondary concerns are power consumptions and mounting.

Off speed:

How do these different devices approach VFR recording rates like 48fps? 720p is fine as I actually prefer it.

My bet is that VFR is is going to be a 60fps, take it or leave it, proposition. In that scenario I assume the fps is dialed in on the recorder and in the case of the F3 could not "read" any flags in the HD-SDI stream. So we will be digging into recorder menus to change rates.

60 fps is a little too slow for me in many cases, so guess I slight speed up will be happening in post.

Does ProRes and DnxHD both support 1080p 60?

Responsiveness to command:

The Ki Pro Mini reportedly needs a few seconds to finish writing a file once recording is stopped. It could take up to 20 seconds to be ready to record again. In the case of run-n-gun shooting or quick shooting this could be an issue. Does anyone know if any of the other recorders have the same issue? Is this even true?

I also understand that the units do not remotely trigger via the usual record start / stop switch on the F3 unless there is SxS media on board to record to as well. So if we run out of SxS during a take our external recorder will stop in its tracks. Any other way to trigger remote start via the camera trigger?

In use feedback:

Really like to have a little record light in the view finder or an indication of fps or time remaining. Confidence is important. Even on models with built in monitors is it possible to route an external view finder to get some sort of indication of status? Any other methods to get "look up" status?

Reliability:

Heard cases of Ki Pro Mini being sensitive to being booted with cards in the unit, rendering false recordings with indication of progress but no media. Very dangerous. Which external recorder seems to be the most resilient and mission critical?

Guess after years of using items like Panasonic P2 and tape based varicams I am used to having the confidence of information from the on board recorder in the view finder and the flexibility of adjusting frame rate and other items in one place.

Thoughts?

C.A.M.
RTVF
 
I have 3 nanoflashes - been using them for over 1.5 years now. run and gun galore. what do you have against this? if you are doing run and gun, do you really need that 10 bit advantage?
 
I was pretty much sold on the SD Pix 240 but after shooting a week with the AJA mini, it's made me rethink. I have to say, it was nice just to have the mini on the back rails and not have to worry about it. The size of the 240 has me really concerned. Having on PL's and having the camera in some odd set-ups, made me glad I wasn't having to fight some large beefy monitor on top of the camera with an arm rig. That's why I like the SmallHD DP6 as monitor. It's small and light. And the 240 is like 2 DP6's sandwiched together with and inch of SSD out the side. Don't get me wrong the SD is awesome but, if you move fast as I do, it's going to be an issue, with that beast on top of cam always having to be re-figured. Just I thought...
 
have you seen the SD in person? it don't think it's that much better than a mini. I've used the mini several days in a row and have a lot of personal issues with it. it can be a great product, but there were certain quirks I just couldn't get over. the fact the pix can record to SSD's alone is a huge deal maker for me, and real rollover recording with CF as a backup.

plus remember the SD isn't JUST a recorder, it's a great audio device, that can give you an additional 2 channels of audio to the cam, and you can jam or take timecode with it. i think the increase in options out way the increase in overall size, but obviously if you don't need all that stuff the choice is obvious.

I can't wait to get mine in, offloads and backups should be mighty speedy.
 
Looking to get the pix 240 myself. Sounds like one hell of a deal. Now only need a camera to use it on. haven't purchased the F3 yet, somehow I'm hoping either Red or Canon will jump in in the next 3 months with a surprise...
 
Off speed:

How do these different devices approach VFR recording rates like 48fps? 720p is fine as I actually prefer it.

My bet is that VFR is is going to be a 60fps, take it or leave it, proposition. In that scenario I assume the fps is dialed in on the recorder and in the case of the F3 could not "read" any flags in the HD-SDI stream. So we will be digging into recorder menus to change rates.

60 fps is a little too slow for me in many cases, so guess I slight speed up will be happening in post.

Does ProRes and DnxHD both support 1080p 60?



They support it, but you won't be able to record it with a single link recorder, you need dual link to record 1080p/60p. the way to get high speed off the is to record it in 60p, like a dslr, and slow it down in post. you can do 720p/60p on any of these recorders just fine. I remember seeing VFR option on the ki mini, but I don't think the camera outputs that way. I might do further testing when i get my pix 240 in.





Responsiveness to command:

The Ki Pro Mini reportedly needs a few seconds to finish writing a file once recording is stopped. It could take up to 20 seconds to be ready to record again. In the case of run-n-gun shooting or quick shooting this could be an issue. Does anyone know if any of the other recorders have the same issue? Is this even true?


that 20 seconds usually only happens when you just recorded a VERY long take. most of the time it's less than a second to finish writing to the card. I've only seen it come close to being that long when we rolled 28 gigs in a single take. so if you just ran a really long take with a ki mini, expect to it to buffer a little longer. Hopefully with other recorders that use faster media this won't be an issue.



I also understand that the units do not remotely trigger via the usual record start / stop switch on the F3 unless there is SxS media on board to record to as well. So if we run out of SxS during a take our external recorder will stop in its tracks. Any other way to trigger remote start via the camera trigger?


there is usually a lanc port where u can use the proper accessory for remote triggering, but another (cheaper way) is just to get the mxr adapter and get large class 10 sd cards. and roll to that. plenty of capacity, cheap redundancy in your footage too in case some how all the pro res gets lost. 2 32 gb sd cards will pretty much let you roll the entire day even on 10:1 ratios. its a couple hours of recording time.




In use feedback:

Really like to have a little record light in the view finder or an indication of fps or time remaining. Confidence is important. Even on models with built in monitors is it possible to route an external view finder to get some sort of indication of status? Any other methods to get "look up" status?

ki mini you see percentage left on card, etc. on the small panel. but to really see your full menus you have to connect it to a computer via ethernet. something I never liked myself. maybe aja will come out with a firmware update where you can see your settings on a overlay menu on the sdi out. big feature request there.



Reliability:

Heard cases of Ki Pro Mini being sensitive to being booted with cards in the unit, rendering false recordings with indication of progress but no media. Very dangerous. Which external recorder seems to be the most resilient and mission critical?

I've used 3 ki mini's on a multi cam shoot side by side, and recorded without a hitch, booting with cards in and out... but sometimes you can run into a glitch, just gotta keep an eye on it. hard to says what's most reliable right now. a lot of them are relatively knew. my best bet, most reliable unit is gonna be the sony sr recorder :)
i got my money on the sound device too though, literally. so i'm crossing my fingers on that one. but best way to find out what's most reliable is for you to use it yourself and you deem what's most reliable. remember 90% of the time, it's user error, I've seen it happen dozens of times and they blame the tech for it. like anything else you just have to keep an eye on it. like setting the wrong shutter speed or framerate on the camera....



Guess after years of using items like Panasonic P2 and tape based varicams I am used to having the confidence of information from the on board recorder in the view finder and the flexibility of adjusting frame rate and other items in one place.

I just think it's a different workflow that ppl aren't used to. It's more of a digital cinema workflow than anything else. Hollywood and huge productions have been using offboard recorders since the conception of a s35 sensor camera. HDCAM, and HDCAM SR. non of them had internal recording, until RED nd dslrs, and now the newest cams. but it just makes a lot of sense to me. bypass/eliminate internal processing so the camera can concentrate more on giving you a better image. and off board recorder does all that work for you from a clean uncompressed tap, recording at ANY quality you desire. you're only limit on your codec is what you choose it to be. I think it's much more efficient that way. remember when p2 was new, and how ppl were going crazy trying to figure out good ways to ingest it? you had raylight to let you edit natively, you had to log and transfer, or on avid systems it was near impossible to do 24PA. it's just on the past year or two that p2 has become easy as butter to work with now. but most of the time i'm asked to transcode that to pro res anyway... and at least offboard recording let's you carry the same quality to any camera you ever shoot on with a hdmi or sdi out that's up to snuff. high quality recording wherever you go. I'm all for it.
 
JDDalllas said:
I was pretty much sold on the SD Pix 240 but after shooting a week with the AJA mini, it's made me rethink. I have to say, it was nice just to have the mini on the back rails and not have to worry about it. The size of the 240 has me really concerned. Having on PL's and having the camera in some odd set-ups, made me glad I wasn't having to fight some large beefy monitor on top of the camera with an arm rig. That's why I like the SmallHD DP6 as monitor. It's small and light. And the 240 is like 2 DP6's sandwiched together with and inch of SSD out the side. Don't get me wrong the SD is awesome but, if you move fast as I do, it's going to be an issue, with that beast on top of cam always having to be re-figured. Just I thought...
Click to expand...
Surely you could mount the PIX on the rails just like the Ki Pro Mini?

Or, undoubtedly, Olof will come up with some amazing bracket.

I agree, hanging devices off of arms and all that is just fiddly and annoying. I've got the Nano on Olof's bracket and it works just as you say -- it's just there, you don't have to worry about it or think about it. I would plan on putting the PIX on the same bracket (surely there's some 1/4-20 mounting holes on it!)
 
eddavid said:
, do you really need that 10 bit advantage?
Click to expand...

Yes. There are a couple of factors here. 10bit vs 8bit. No contest. Especially when it comes to color correction and preservation of image detail. 10bit 4:2:2 is really the reasonable minimum for S-log and 4:4:4 is really best.

Run-n-gun is more of a style of work for us rather than an ENG quality level. We are used to getting mission critical performance and high quality levels from all-in-one gear like Varicams, etc. So as we experiment with digital cinema workflows we are trying to preserve a lot of what we like about the camcorder approach.

Lensing and power are two other areas of concern, but those are for other threads.
 
Peter,

We're looking towards that sort of time as well. We're going to make an announcement soon about exact shipping dates and availability. You'll probably find that there will be limited availability initially, and then full availability about a month later. The good thing about the Samurai is that, while it's a new product, it shares the same DNA with the tried-and-tested Ninja.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
C.A.Magid said:
Yes. There are a couple of factors here. 10bit vs 8bit. No contest. Especially when it comes to color correction and preservation of image detail. 10bit 4:2:2 is really the reasonable minimum for S-log and 4:4:4 is really best.

Run-n-gun is more of a style of work for us rather than an ENG quality level. We are used to getting mission critical performance and high

quality levels from all-in-one gear like Varicams, etc. So as we experiment with digital cinema workflows we are trying to preserve a lot of what we like about the camcorder approach.

Lensing and power are two other areas of concern, but those are for other threads.
Click to expand...
Varicam is 8bit 1440 x 1080. Nano is best power saving i have a pix 240 preorder but hey i use it for narrative. 8bit 100 long gop is damn good . Road warrior thay nanoflash bit hey feel free to be a. 10bit or else person. Have fun waiting till sept. Or using the mini
 
anybody have the source or link on the delay on the pix240? can't find any info on that anywhere
 
I called them. I was told that the dealers will get their demo's mid August. Dealers should receive units to fill customers orders mid September.
 
eddavid said:
Varicam is 8bit 1440 x 1080.
Click to expand...

WRONG. Very WRONG.

Varicam 2700 (720p) & 3700 (1080p) record FULL RASTER 10 bit HD AVC Intra at 100 Mbps to onboard P2 cards. With a full load of cards in 720p 24 it is over 600 minutes of recording. Same goes for many other non Varicam Panasonic HPX models which record FULL RASTER, 1920x1080 or 1280x720 10 bit HD. Heck, including the new tiny HPX 250 at under $6,000.

I think AVC Intra produces better visual results at comparable data rates. It is more modern method of compression designed with HD in mind. Mpeg 2 is being stretched to handle HD and seems to fall apart sooner with artifacts like macroblocking, flat field color,etc. Some NLEs like Media Composer have had problems with Long GOP Mpeg2 at high data rates, so sticking to I frame nano flash variants are best.

The current Varicam and HPX cameras, like most since 2007-2008 are leaps and bounds better than the older DVCPRO HD gear that were tied to 8 bit, more heavily compressed recording. However, even the older cameras output 10bit HD-SDI from their spigots.

If I wanted 8 bit I would probably stay with the F3 on board long gop codec and live with the sacrifice of 4:2:0 as well. However, the difference between 8 bit and 10 bit combined with higher data rate of ProRes, DnxHD or Cineform is extremely dramatic for any gamma and really a prerequisite for S-log.

Any images shot with post production color correction or keying in mind will benefit greatly from 10bit color space, especially those with natural gradients like skies or reflections like on automobile metal. Subtle skin tone variations are better represented and there is less banding to challenge the codec in areas of subtle lighting patterns or large fields of flat color.

So my questions were about integrating something like a Ki Pro, Gemini, Pix or etc. However I suppose the same workflow questions exist for Nanoflash, being:

-Does it trigger off of proper HD-SDI embedded commands like the SR-R1 will or does it rely on a timecode trick that requires native media in the camera? Or must it be started independently?

-Is there a "video through" allowing an external viewfinder (not monitor) to be used for record indication confidence and mode info?

-Will it record 720p 24 and 1080p 24 natively without the need for pulldown removal?

-Will it record any true VFR such as 720p 48fps and how?

-Will it record at 1080p60 or 720p60 to sub for true VFR support?

-Do they support external power with D-tap or 4pin allowing one Gold mount or V mount to power the whole rig (camera, viewfinder, recorder) via accessories so when the recorder dies, everything dies? This would prevent a dead recorder surprising a DP with his head in the shot.

-Do they take long to "boot" or finish writing files? What happens to files being recorded when power is interrupted?

I don't think many, if any, external recorders deliver all or even most of the above. Therefore they are really not perfect substitutes for the flexibility and reliability of on board recording. However this first batch of affordable large sensor cameras require the use of a separate recorder to get the image quality availability in more traditional video cameras for years.

My quest is to the find the one which most closely approaches the mission critical, speedy workflow that many professionals have taken for granted since Sony delivered the first Betacam more than 20 years ago.

I'm not looking for a science experiment or wrestling with multiple points of failure.

This is one area where Alexa truly shines but at quite a premium.

If I had to buy something immediately it would be a KiPro Mini but here is to hoping these things continue to develop quickly and other alternatives come to market without its faults.

This time next year I bet Panasonic has a 35mm or 4/3rds one piece Varicam with on board AVC Intra or AVC Ultra, Sony will have unveiled a mid-line model between the F3 and SRW900 with at least 50Mbps on board 10 bit 4:2:2 and Cannon may even have something for us to look at.

In a few years we will look back and laugh at these external recorders as we now chuckle at luggable 3/4 VTRs that minicam operators used to haul around. (digital raw mags are another story)

I really prefer to stay in the Panasonic family but at the moment, they really don't have anything for me to buy.

So it may be an F3 with a recorder.
 
Has any one tried out BM Decklink Extreme,3D for recording yet? I am considering it as Gemini will take longer than the original schedule of CD?
 
C.A.Magid said:
WRONG. Very WRONG.

Varicam 2700 (720p) & 3700 (1080p) record FULL RASTER 10 bit HD AVC Intra at 100 Mbps to onboard P2 cards. With a full load of cards in 720p 24 it is over 600 minutes of recording. Same goes for many other non Varicam Panasonic HPX models which record FULL RASTER, 1920x1080 or 1280x720 10 bit HD. Heck, including the new tiny HPX 250 at under $6,000.

I think AVC Intra produces better visual results at comparable data rates. It is more modern method of compression designed with HD in mind. Mpeg 2 is being stretched to handle HD and seems to fall apart sooner with artifacts like macroblocking, flat field color,etc. Some NLEs like Media Composer have had problems with Long GOP Mpeg2 at high data rates, so sticking to I frame nano flash variants are best.

The current Varicam and HPX cameras, like most since 2007-2008 are leaps and bounds better than the older DVCPRO HD gear that were tied to 8 bit, more heavily compressed recording. However, even the older cameras output 10bit HD-SDI from their spigots.

If I wanted 8 bit I would probably stay with the F3 on board long gop codec and live with the sacrifice of 4:2:0 as well. However, the difference between 8 bit and 10 bit combined with higher data rate of ProRes, DnxHD or Cineform is extremely dramatic for any gamma and really a prerequisite for S-log.

Any images shot with post production color correction or keying in mind will benefit greatly from 10bit color space, especially those with natural gradients like skies or reflections like on automobile metal. Subtle skin tone variations are better represented and there is less banding to challenge the codec in areas of subtle lighting patterns or large fields of flat color.

So my questions were about integrating something like a Ki Pro, Gemini, Pix or etc. However I suppose the same workflow questions exist for Nanoflash, being:

-Does it trigger off of proper HD-SDI embedded commands like the SR-R1 will or does it rely on a timecode trick that requires native media in the camera? Or must it be started independently?

-Is there a "video through" allowing an external viewfinder (not monitor) to be used for record indication confidence and mode info?

-Will it record 720p 24 and 1080p 24 natively without the need for pulldown removal?

-Will it record any true VFR such as 720p 48fps and how?

-Will it record at 1080p60 or 720p60 to sub for true VFR support?

-Do they support external power with D-tap or 4pin allowing one Gold mount or V mount to power the whole rig (camera, viewfinder, recorder) via accessories so when the recorder dies, everything dies? This would prevent a dead recorder surprising a DP with his head in the shot.

-Do they take long to "boot" or finish writing files? What happens to files being recorded when power is interrupted?

I don't think many, if any, external recorders deliver all or even most of the above. Therefore they are really not perfect substitutes for the flexibility and reliability of on board recording. However this first batch of affordable large sensor cameras require the use of a separate recorder to get the image quality availability in more traditional video cameras for years.

My quest is to the find the one which most closely approaches the mission critical, speedy workflow that many professionals have taken for granted since Sony delivered the first Betacam more than 20 years ago.

I'm not looking for a science experiment or wrestling with multiple points of failure.

This is one area where Alexa truly shines but at quite a premium.

If I had to buy something immediately it would be a KiPro Mini but here is to hoping these things continue to develop quickly and other alternatives come to market without its faults.

This time next year I bet Panasonic has a 35mm or 4/3rds one piece Varicam with on board AVC Intra or AVC Ultra, Sony will have unveiled a mid-line model between the F3 and SRW900 with at least 50Mbps on board 10 bit 4:2:2 and Cannon may even have something for us to look at.

In a few years we will look back and laugh at these external recorders as we now chuckle at luggable 3/4 VTRs that minicam operators used to haul around. (digital raw mags are another story)

I really prefer to stay in the Panasonic family but at the moment, they really don't have anything for me to buy.

So it may be an F3 with a recorder.
Click to expand...

Well said.
I chuckle when I see Betacam and Alexa mentioned in the same post because the Alexa isn't that much more expensive than the high-end Betacams were back in the day. Funny how the AF100's and F3's have changed our perspective...not to mention how rates have stagnated (or dropped) since the high-end Beta days.

More on topic, I regularly run a popular outboard recorder on a couple of my cameras, but when using it for "mission critical" shoots I always keep my fingers firmly crossed. I'll be very happy when they're no longer needed.
 
JCummings said:
Well said.
I chuckle when I see Betacam and Alexa mentioned in the same post because the Alexa isn't that much more expensive than the high-end Betacams were back in the day. Funny how the AF100's and F3's have changed our perspective...not to mention how rates have stagnated (or dropped) since the high-end Beta days.

More on topic, I regularly run a popular outboard recorder on a couple of my cameras, but when using it for "mission critical" shoots I always keep my fingers firmly crossed. I'll be very happy when they're no longer needed.
Click to expand...

Amen brother. Seem to remember most of the early Beta Rigs being around 70K or so when kitted out. Alexa isn't far off that mark. Doesn't take many years of falling prices to spoil us.

Fully how Arri has delivered the camera most like ENG/EFP gear. Which is actual close to old 16mm news cameras. Its all there...viewfinder, on board recording and flexible luts. Understand it chews through power. Even more like a Betacam or 16mm rig.

I too will be very happy when manufacturers graduate from 1st generation 35mm market milking and deliver more complete hardware. Won't be long. Sony is bound to see the dollars being spent on Ki Pro, Pix and the like. They will want a cut. There is a obvious gap in offerings which should let Panasonic or Cannon leap frog into the middle market at 25K to 35K with compelling, all in one, cameras in useful form factors. This competition will spur the others to create more sensible cameras too.

So, can you share your experiences, configuration and workflow as pertains to the recorder you use?
 
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