EX1 or HPX500
- Thread starter STORMDAVE
- Start date
An event shooter will probably fall in love with the nanoFlash. Barring results yet-to-be-seen in a real shooting environment AND how this stuff is handled in post... the low cost solution to long recording times in hi definition formats is really nice.
I'm still kind-of hoping that the difference between DVCProHD and the Sony Full Raster codec is enough to justify the purchase... that's really the final frontier for me in Panasonic world. Resolution, I mean.
I'm still kind-of hoping that the difference between DVCProHD and the Sony Full Raster codec is enough to justify the purchase... that's really the final frontier for me in Panasonic world. Resolution, I mean.
Well, my (Sony) camera certainly becomes a lot softer when I critically examine it when (say) slowly panning. So is it a long-GOP issue?
Definately not, it's a 2/3" DVCAM, so no long-GOP in sight. My assumption is that I'm seeing motion blur over the frame, and is likely to apply to any such camera from any manufacturer. Easy enough to tell - just dial in faster shutter speeds and I think you'll see the frames becoming sharp again, though the "juddery" effect then probably makes the normal shutter speeds preferable. A good test if you concerned whether any perceived issue is due to codec or intrinsic camera operation.
Practically, any long-GOP problem won't show up as a resolution loss on movement, rather macroblocking if the data rate is too low. Something I've seen often on broadcast TV, occasionally on HDV, never at XDCAM bitrates.
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
Actually there is definitely a resolution loss when there is motion and too much change within the fram. This happens just before the macroblocking. Send me your email address and I will send you an example.
Best,
Jan
joe 1008
Veteran
The warranty, is it worldwide? I mean, can I buy a camera in the United States and then claim the warranty in Europe? Or is it limitet to regions/continents?
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
The warranty is in the country of the camera's origin. So if it was sent to the US. The warranty is in the US. If in Japan, the warranty is in Japan. If the camera was originally shipped to Spain, the camera's warranty is in Spain. The camera can be serviced on a worldwide basis but the free warranty is at home.
Hope the helps,
Jan
Hope the helps,
Jan
CF is free compared to P2. Our plan is to leave the studio with enough CF to shoot all day and not worry about field data wrangling. CF card management is then handled like any other exposed media.
Once back in the studio, CF downloaded to the server, .mov files backed up to removable firewire and Blu-Ray. It's conceivable that within the next two years CF will be as cheap as tape, and just archived.
There's no need for an intermediate codec as XDR .mov files will be dropped on the timeline with ProRes as the effects/transition codec. That being said, we always transcode to ProRes regardless of the capture codec because of it's superior RT performance.
At this point the workflow isn't any different than it ever was.
It's not like there's any shortage of media management software that works with offline media. Sure, it might have to build the thumbnails, but this is back end server work that people are used to dealing with anyway.
Besides, there are countless users who shoot one-off projects that don't need to be referenced very often, if ever, and dragging out a firewire drive or Blu-Ray disk isn't a big deal if they have to.
Most EX users will want the Nano, so it's $3500. Once you factor in the price difference of CF compared to P2, dealing with some gradable IR issues might not be a big deal. And with a 100M 4:2:2 codec, there will be plenty of grading latitude.
But the 100Mbps 4:2:2 codec isn't going to introduce more compression artifacts so it will be interesting to see.
I'm itching to be able to head out for a full day of shooting with a 3000 without worrying about field data wrangling or a P2 rental fee that's more than the camera's.
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
It will be interesting to see how this all works out, as I know and have faith that the P2 can handle 100Mbs sustained for hours on end. It will be interesting to see if the CF can do the same and if it doesn't who do you ask about it, the CF manufacturer or the folks at Convergent? Not so free if it fails.
Pro Res is an intermediate codec unless of coure you are saying that it records in ProRes.
Sure it is, you just aren't looking at the entire picture. Playback in the field? Going from record to playback? And Metadata, and I do mean more than thumbnails and time code. But then these ideas are not the same between the Ex and the P2.
AS long as there is space for it built into the compression algortihm.
Not if you are trying to find it within 100 hours of stuff and the space needs to be there to have the metadata there. If that one off project is a film, that could be 100 hours or so of footage to sort through. Would be easier to find clips with metadata.
It will be more that the IR issues, but partial exposure issues, skewing issues, lens chroma abberation issues, and on and on. Anything that happens ahead of the compression issues. And at 100Mbs, if the homework wasn't doen well on the compression, you may have compression atrifacts becaus euncompressed HD is 994Mbs. So it really will depend on how goo the compression is.
Really? We will have to wait and see because there certainly compression there.
Best,
Jan
I'm itching to be able to head out for a full day of shooting with a 3000 without worrying about field data wrangling or a P2 rental fee that's more than the camera's.[/QUOTE]
High speed cards will do this without fail and have been for us on the still end for years. 100Mbps cards aren't even considered 'fast' anymore. But even if we had to step up to the fastest cards available, Ultra IVs, or even Red's cards, they're still vastly cheaper and more available than P2. The 50Mbps codec is going to be more than enough for most people, and enough for anyone happy with DVCPRO HD, so even if write speed was an issue, it wouldn't be for most people.
CF card's economies of scale, capacities, and speeds continue to grow and will always significantly outpace the comparably insignificant market for P2. There are 100Mbps capable CF cards at our grocery store, not to mention every Best Buy, Office Max and Walmart in the world.
Compared to P2 costs, it's cheaper to run dual XDR's in RAID 1 and leave the shoot with four copies of the footage. If one happened to fail, was lost, or stolen, you still have three remaining originals.
If people can shoot feature films to CF on the Red and get completion bonds, I think we'll manage.
Nice FUD chucking though.
You don't need to transcode to ProRes to use the .mov files, I just said we do. We do it with all formats, DVCPRO and AVC included, it's a much better editing codec. If you want to edit in the capture codec, you can.
It's true that the XDR won't have a thumbmnail navigator, but playback isn't going to be an issue, and I doubt switching to record is going to be any harder than with a P2 camera. If you need to do more, popping the CF into a laptop for critical review is the better option regardless.
CF cards are a 1/10th of P2 cards, that's a really good motivator for anyone on this board. The ability to affordably not re-use media in the field is a huge deal on so many levels it could be it's own thread.
People have been using external thumbnails with metadata for years, it's not a big deal, and a great way to deal with offline media.
Again, any decent media management solution had this issue solved many years ago. It's not like people shooting tape and film haven't figured this out.
I think people will have some faith in an eighth generation codec working at 100Mbps. Having run a difference filter between the 100Mb and uncompressed footage, I'm quite confident.
You're going to have a hard enough time convincing people that AVCIntra can justify P2 pricing, but with DVCPro HD or HDCAM EX, it's a complete no brainer.
We're going to be running tests with a HPX3000 recording uncompressed, AVCIntra, and the 100Mbps at the same time so we'll know soon enough.
With the XDRs ability to write to cheap media, and how trivial it would be to move to SD sots or even SSD media, the only thing the XDR needs to do to eliminate P2 use among Indies, is just not suck. If it's as good as it appears to be, there's a whole lotta Varicam owners and rental houses who'll get a new camera for $3500 - $5000.
There will no doubt be people who need professional support backing behind their entire workflow and every hardware piece in it, but those people don't spend a lot if time on these boards, and are usually spending other people's money.
Last edited:
All the nanoFlash stuff is speculation until someone actually does the tests. I'm all about it, might be adding one to my HPX170 or EX-1 (whichever I end up with in September) but everything is pure speculation until it's in the field.
Is 3500.00 + 1000.00 (CF Card setup) + 6000.00 (optimistic price tag of an EX1) for a total of 10,500.00 worth all of that extra trouble?
Not to mention what else you may be purchasing in the form of camera support or mods (35mm Adapter + Lenses).
I'm down, but I'm just sayin' don't think that there can't and won't be some issues to address.
Is 3500.00 + 1000.00 (CF Card setup) + 6000.00 (optimistic price tag of an EX1) for a total of 10,500.00 worth all of that extra trouble?
Not to mention what else you may be purchasing in the form of camera support or mods (35mm Adapter + Lenses).
I'm down, but I'm just sayin' don't think that there can't and won't be some issues to address.
When you factor in the media cost of CF to SxS and the significantly better codec, I'm not sure many would call it trouble.
The biggest difference is that a $1000 of CF gets you all day shooting without media re-use or data wrangling. When you figure out what SxS or P2 costs for that ability, or factor in the cost of in the field data wrangling, suddenly the trouble is a dream solution.
I think your calculations are a bit unfair:
3500 + 1000 to use that codec with offloading solutions.
4500.00 would get you an equal amount of recording time I bet.
I don't think that the recording time will ever justify the 4500.00 price tag HOWEVER the Full Raster, 4:2:2 and choice of BitRate do make it a different story.
If you want to compare apples to apples then it doesn't cost you 1000.00, it costs you 4500 on top of whatever you spend on the camera. The most ideal solution?
Someone build a camera that only has HD-SDI and Dual link capabilities but no proprietary recording format. Bring it home at 2000.00 to 3000.00 and then let companies like Convergent Jump into a pool with their different peripherals offering all sorts of flavors for portable recording. Someone could do one that records to P2 AVCintra and DVCproHD switchable, Convergent Designs has a Sony Proprietary CF card recording format. You get where I'm going.
If the camera only costs 2k to 3k then adding a 3500.00 device is suddenly a magical thing.
Perhaps Scarlet will be a good option for this because the RAW format is CERTAINLY not something universal. Food for thought.
3500 + 1000 to use that codec with offloading solutions.
4500.00 would get you an equal amount of recording time I bet.
I don't think that the recording time will ever justify the 4500.00 price tag HOWEVER the Full Raster, 4:2:2 and choice of BitRate do make it a different story.
If you want to compare apples to apples then it doesn't cost you 1000.00, it costs you 4500 on top of whatever you spend on the camera. The most ideal solution?
Someone build a camera that only has HD-SDI and Dual link capabilities but no proprietary recording format. Bring it home at 2000.00 to 3000.00 and then let companies like Convergent Jump into a pool with their different peripherals offering all sorts of flavors for portable recording. Someone could do one that records to P2 AVCintra and DVCproHD switchable, Convergent Designs has a Sony Proprietary CF card recording format. You get where I'm going.
If the camera only costs 2k to 3k then adding a 3500.00 device is suddenly a magical thing.
Perhaps Scarlet will be a good option for this because the RAW format is CERTAINLY not something universal. Food for thought.
One interesting aspect announced about the Nano flash is its capability to serve as a playback device: it can take HD-SDI in from, say, a Kona 3, and serve as a portable HD Deck. Its big brother with the 4 ports will be even better: 4 32gb cards would mean feature lengh 100 mbit 4:2:2 1920x1080 LONG GOP displaying- This would mean better than HDCAM quality Display of an Indie Film for festivals/shows.(theoreticaly, of course)
Last edited:
Today $1000 of CF will get you 8 hours of 50Mbps recording. 8 hours of SxS runs around $8000. P2 is, well, just a little more.
CF prices, speed, and capacities will always outperform limited market proprietary media.
If you regularly need to off-load cards in the field, moving to CF recording will pay for it self very quickly.
It's worth it just for the cheap media and no field data wrangling. The codec is also worth the price alone. Together, yes they are the ideal solution for us. The ability to drop this on a Varicam or 3000, priceless.
Sorry about the terrible english on my last post. Lazy writting...
Anyway, I would assume the Nanoflash being excelent by itself as an HD Deck...Edit Prores HQ 4:2:2 and then output in 8 Bit 100mbit 4:2:2 Long GOP for festivals...
Every major Digital FIlm festival should have one of those... Would really help us on the delivery front! No more expensive HDCAM master for delivery!
Bassman2003
Veteran
Exactly.
The Flash XDR is going to a very liberating tool for small businesses and non clip-based shooting environments.
On the topic of "what is one to do if a CF card fails" -
Well, what is Panasonic or Sony going to do if one of their cards happen to fail on a shoot?
Are they going to call your client and reimburse them?
No, they are going to say it is an anomoly and replace the card, but you will still be without your footage. (I have seen posts from both camps, so it does happen).
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
Yes that is pretty much what we will do, but I have never gotten a CF card to be replaced. And I have not seen one off the shelf that gaurantees perfomance. That would be the primary difference as I see it. We shall see how it all works out.
Best,
Jan