EX1 or HPX500

Probably not; if so, we should have heard something about it at NAB just a couple of weeks ago. The rebate was already in force at that time.
 
I hope it won't be discontinued any time soon, I might want a second one.

I think Sony is feeling a kick for not having an ENG style camera in this price range with 2/3" CCD's.
 
The HPX500 is a great camera, it is based on a professional Compression algorithm namely DVCPRO HD. The EX doesn't hold a candle next to the HPX500, in it picture making capability, the EX1 may have the edge on resolution until the camera moves and then all bets are off. The HPX is quieter, has better low light response, has better motion handling, has a better algorithm and is as quiet as the EX1. The CAC works regardless of zoom position, and it is based on P2, and a proven workflow. And no there are no plans to discontiue it any time soon, I see it in the product line for more than a year, at least.

And to settle something said earlier about the 200A and the HPX500, I think that the two cameras are equal in the noise category. We took what we found out in the making of the 500 and applied it to the 200A. The 500 is better in low light, sharpness and dynamic range.

Best regards,

Jan
 
Matt, welcome to the club. We'll have to do some multi camera music videos together!

I've pm'd you.

chris
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
The HPX500 is a great camera, it is based on a professional Compression algorithm namely DVCPRO HD. The EX doesn't hold a candle next to the HPX500, in it picture making capability, the EX1 may have the edge on resolution until the camera moves and then all bets are off. The HPX is quieter, has better low light response, has better motion handling, has a better algorithm and is as quiet as the EX1. The CAC works regardless of zoom position, and it is based on P2, and a proven workflow. And no there are no plans to discontiue it any time soon, I see it in the product line for more than a year, at least.

And to settle something said earlier about the 200A and the HPX500, I think that the two cameras are equal in the noise category. We took what we found out in the making of the 500 and applied it to the 200A. The 500 is better in low light, sharpness and dynamic range.

Best regards,

Jan
Click to expand...
EX1 has more resolution which does matter if you want that sharp bluray image you tend to see at sony demos(yes they do also add alot of post sharpening). Resolution does matter. When I worked at best buy I found out the difference between composite and component cables. I feel that the difference between the EX1 and the HPX500 are almost that different. If you do a split screen between the 2 cameras the first thing you will notice is the mighty resolution Of the EX1. The EX1 does hold a candle to the HPX500 and the picture making capabilities might be greater than that of the HPX500 because the image can be tweak more in the menus. The HPX500 and the EX1 are great cameras and if they were priced the same I might go with the HPX500 but they are not. And the EX1 hdv format it is based on a professional Compression algorithm called hdv. And remember DVCPROHD only records 40Mb not 100Mb at 720p24 and the EX1 records 35Mb vbr at 720p24. EX1 has a better compression scheme and almost the same datarate.
 
Hi Nick,

But the Ex1 is still long GOP and 4:2:0, along with the fact that when you start to move the camera, the resolution changes because of the algorithm keeping up with the changes. Along with that the HPX has 2/3" CCDs and not CMOS or rolling shutter issues. No there is no way that you woudl convince me that the two cameras are in competiion. The EX1 is selling resolution but that is all it has to offer.

I stand by my earlier statement, the HPX500 is an excellent camera that offers performance that Long GOP CMOS cameras only wish that they could, and that is right down to the P2 cards.

Best,

Jan
 
I saw some EX1 footage and HPX500 footage and I liked the EX1 footage but resolution is not always the answer.

It uses MPEG2 @ 4:2:0, while DVCPRO50/DVCPROHD use 4:2:2 color space where there is more color information in the Blue & Red channels. Think of XDCAM (not the new 422 format) as the DV format which is 4:1:1 (which is similar to 4:2:0)...

Also DVCPROHD is a i-frame based codec vs a Long GOP codec like the XDCAM EX. It's not always about the data rate...AVC-Intra triumphs over MPEG2 & DVCPROHD at 100mbps in terms of quality, but it's a much harder format to edit with...so as new technology emerges (MPEG2 & DCT based DVCPROHD are rather old) we will see better formats arise in cameras.

I went ahead with the HPX500 because of size concerns, we've been using ENG cameras forever now and we couldn't move to the smaller ones because of this and plus we don't like rolling shutters and we have alot of ENG accessories that we would like to use again.

We might get a second HPX500 or an HVX200A (or HPX170) to match the HPX500 as b-roll
 
I haven't gotten the HPX500 yet, but I have a question and don't want to clutter up the forum by making a new thread....

But if I shoot HD, does the camera downconvert so I can watch it on a professional Panasonic 16:9 SD monitor?
 
Yes on downrez for SD 16:9

LOL.... "professional Compression algorithm called hdv".... hehehehee.... OK..... grin....
 
I tested the JVC HD250, the Sony S270, the EX1, and the HPX500. No scientific tests mind you, but I needed to chalenge them all in the environments I shoot in. Mostly for corporate videos. Amongst thoses environments include the well lit, and the not so well lit industrial plants.

They are all fine cameras, and they all shine in some way or another. To each his (or her) own. But my bottom line is I need something versatile, shouldermount, not too noisy, can key well without carrying an AJA ioHD hooked up to the HDSDI port and to my computer... and if at all possible, go tapeless.

I tested them sequentially and did not have a chance to test them side by side with tweaked settings. Only the captured footage was compared. I found that the HD250 was too noisy for my taste. The S270 was noisy too, but much less then the JVC. Also noticed some CA. I had to try the EX1 (even though it's not as shouldermount), It had nice resolution, but failed to satisfy me when there was motion. Also, the rolling shutter bothered me. Yes it's less noisy and is about a stop better then the S270, but that's to be expected of a 1/2" sensor as opposed to 1/3", i suppose.

And Finally, the HPX500.... Yes the sensor is less densely packed then the above, and yes the images are slightly softer then the above (S270 and EX1)... but that's it. The image quality is very good regardless (killer 720p, not so much 1080). Acceptable noise levels, better dynamic range, better colorimetry, better sensitivity overall, the image does not break down with motion (i.e.: moderate pans)... AND... it can key much better then the above (long live 4:2:2).

I still have the HPX500 with me for the rest of the week end, and I'll take advantage of it. My choice is pretty well made up. Unless someone can point out something to me that I haven't thought of (other camera, different tests...).
 
Thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts on the two cameras, this is very informative. Just one question: what do people mean when they say the EX1 image can break down when there's motion--ie, panning, or whatever else? I remember Barry Green saying the camera lost resolution when there's motion, but then retracted that after further testing. Is there something else?

Thanks!
 
I'm glad this thread helps others as well.

What they mean by images breaking up on fast motion is that XDCAM EX at the highest setting uses 35mbps MPEG2 via variable bitrate, so the bitrate goes up and down and you may see some blockiness as you would see on a badly encoded DVD. This does not happen with the HPX500 because it is based on an i-frame codec and it uses constant bitrate.
 
This topic is very pertenent to me as I am in the market for some HD cameras.

The EX-1 and the HPX-500 are on the short list.

Lets look at these two cameras side by side in terms of cost and features often mentioned:

EX-1 Base cost $6500
Lens - included with CA kept in check
Memory for lets say four hours of 1080p shooting - $3,200
High resolution LCD, low resolution viewfinder.
Full raster chips, 4:2:0 color space, people say does not handle motion well.
So total cost - $10,000 for 4 hours of shooting

HPX-500 Base cost $8,000 w/Rebate
Lens - starting at $8,500 with CAC
Memory for four hours of shooting 1080p - $3,600
Low resolution LCD, low resolution viewfinder
Up-Rezzed chipset, 4:2:2 color space, handles motion very well.
Total cost - ~$19,500

So in the end, you will pay for the cost of two EX-1s for the price of one HPX-500 for the tradeoffs of motion capture.

One point I think is important is the low resolution viewfinder of the HPX-500.

I think it is quite odd to have an SD viewfinder on an HD camera. The idea just seems wrong. It makes me feel like it is leftover inventory from the SD days.

I realize there are focus assist functions, but for $20,000, it does not make me feel warm and fuzzy.

I am hoping to see both of these cameras this week and make some decision.
 
Some additional items that may or may not be important are the full size form factor, 2/3" chip/mount and depth of field. You will pay more for those features, and as I said they might not matter depending on your needs and situation. If you dont need those features or 4:2:2 (or the others mentioned above) by all means save your money and go with something else. Honestly, I don't think there is one "perfect" camera for all situations. I can think of some great ways to use a SD9 that neither HPX500 or EX1 could do. Just try to find one that fills most of your needs and provides you the flexibilty to be creative.

The low res viewfinder and LCD were mentioned as well, but consider the fact that if those items were included the price would increase. Would that be helpful or restrictive? As far as I know if you need/want a better VF you can purchase one to upgrade your HPX500. One thing seems to be a constant however; every camera we talk about has its shortcomings, just make sure the camera you purchase fits your needs.

My .02
 
Bassman2003 said:
This topic is very pertenent to me as I am in the market for some HD cameras.

The EX-1 and the HPX-500 are on the short list.

Lets look at these two cameras side by side in terms of cost and features often mentioned:

EX-1 Base cost $6500
Lens - included with CA kept in check
Memory for lets say four hours of 1080p shooting - $3,200
High resolution LCD, low resolution viewfinder.
Full raster chips, 4:2:0 color space, people say does not handle motion well.
So total cost - $10,000 for 4 hours of shooting

HPX-500 Base cost $8,000 w/Rebate
Lens - starting at $8,500 with CAC
Memory for four hours of shooting 1080p - $3,600
Low resolution LCD, low resolution viewfinder
Up-Rezzed chipset, 4:2:2 color space, handles motion very well.
Total cost - ~$19,500

I am hoping to see both of these cameras this week and make some decision.
Click to expand...

Don't forget the fact that there is a key difference in the imagers themselves. The EX1 has a CMOS imager and the 500 has a CCD. Next keep in mind that the EX1 is long GOP so you won't know when the algorithm has to start dropping resolution until you review the footage. A lot of changes, a lot of detail, and there is no choice for the XDCAM EX to drop info in order to make the 35mb payload. Keep in mind that the larger XDCAM camera, the 355 has a standard def VF as well, and its payload is 35mbs as well. The difference here is that the footprint of the XDCAM HD is 1440 X 1080, an image that is about 40% less in size. This really means that there is more compression happening on the EX than on the bigger XDCAM cameras.

Numbers are easy to understand if you look at them as just numbers, ie, 1920 is bigger than 1440 and therefore it ihas to be better. Not always true if you know why the smaller number is actually better.

Best,

Jan
 
Update on my tests. Shot in 1080p today, I thought that the HPX500 was essentially an upres from 720 to 1080 (I know, I know... pixel shifted)... boy was I wrong. There are real details that where not there in 720p... and no muskito noise. Anyway, compared the to same shots of the EX1, I have to say that the HPX500 is much better in all regards. At first glance, the EX1 does seem better, but when you dive into the details, that's where the EX1 does not shine. As for the HPX500, the colors are much more vibrant without being overly saturated. Not to mention the DOF.. Wow! 2/3" and 4:2:2 are what makes this outshine others. Still testing... but I'm sold! Yes it's more expensive, but it's worth the benefits. Hey! 2/3".. At that price!!! Real cheap when all things are considered.

Down side? Yes the VF is.. well, for the lack of a better word... crap! An SD VF... go figure... but hey, that's why the unit is affordable in the first place. But I indend to get a better one: 2" HD with better peeking circuit.

Now to choose batteries.... Anton Bauer or Swit ? Any problems with the cheaper Swit that people know of?
 
Last edited:
Jan,

Question about the VF. Can I change it for a better one, like the HVF20? It's 16x9 and the supplied one is 4x3, will that distort the image (because of the data display), or is there some intelligence in there to compensate? Is the peeking circuitry a lot better? Because the one on the stock VF is... well... not all that good.

Also, there are numerous VF listed on the Panny site, but no information is given about them. HVF27, HVF27GB, HVF21G, HVF20, VF20WB, VF15B, HVF20B, VF20B, VF15. Lots of models, not much info to choose with.

As always, you are a gem to this site. I remember all the efforts you put in during the days of glory of the DVX100. I'm really glad your able to put up with us.
 
Flintstone said:
Jan,

Question about the VF. Can I change it for a better one, like the HVF20? It's 16x9 and the supplied one is 4x3, will that distort the image (because of the data display), or is there some intelligence in there to compensate? Is the peeking circuitry a lot better? Because the one on the stock VF is... well... not all that good.
.
Click to expand...

Hi,

The signal coming out of the VF connector is an SD signal and so the HD VFs will not do anything for you, you could spend more on the VF15 or VF20 and basically you would get maybe a smidge more resolution adn a nicer gamma curve. My suggestion would be, learn how to use the Histagram display, you will hit focus every time, and spend the money on say a BT-LH80W.

Hope this helps,

Jan
 
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