Ex Picture Profile Thread

More specifically, color correction allows you to dial in a specific hue AND a tolerance or range of colors to either side of that hue to include in the correction, and then change that range of colors while leaving other hues unaffected.

HiSat and Cinema may have other differences, but yes, I do note a particular drop in saturation in the reds with cinema matrix, but also a shift in the hue of blues. Baby blue skies shift toward a more violet/purple shade with cinema. Also, I discovered that fire and flames look "CG" in quality, not quite realistic, as I discovered with my footage that I shot of the Shockwave jet-powered truck at an air show last fall.
Cinema matrix may do other things as well, but I haven't spent the time to look at it on a scope to see what hue ranges it shifts.
Cinema matrix may have some usefulness in protecting older delivery formats from color bleed, because of that desaturation that goes on. It is desirable to maintain strong greens and skin tones, but roll back saturation on solid reds, like fire engines and red sports cars, which would spill terribly on composite video displays. Of course, cine vs. hisat is a creative choice that a DP has available. Almost TOO much choice, when you get into the various combinations possible with the matrices and various gama curves!
 
basspig said:
5. Gama level: changes the shape of the transfer curve for contrast information. Mostly affects a broad range of midtones, but leaves black and bright white unaffected.
Click to expand...


are you sure about that? i just checked on my camera shooting at a piece of white tissue paper that was rippled(not evenly lite). i turned on both of my zebras(90 & 70). as i increased (+) the GAMMA Level, CINE 3, it seemed to lower the highlights and bring back detail into those normally blown out areas. vice versa for decreasing (-) Level.
 
[Please pardon my tardiness in responding to this thread. Yesterday I was in a marathon session to bang out three short-run CD albums, which had me manually assembling, printing, burning, trimming and folding inserts for 70 CD albums. I was using both computers to burn, print CDs and structured my workflow so I always had folding/cutting to do while the workstations were writing CDs and printing liners. Anyway...]

Are you relying upon the LCD to make those determinations? I'm convinced that the LCD clips whites at a level below that which the imagers do.
Yes, CINE3 does lower the overall upper limit of white, and increasing the Gamma will brighten up the midrange again, however, I do believe that this setup discards the useful info up in the 101-109 IRE range by precompressing it down to the 0-100IRE range.
I did some informal testing with a scene that contained some shiny objects that reflected light sources and provided hot spots with a gradient. Adjusting around this scene, I found I could capture the widest range with STD4 and a manual knee adjustment.
Now, there seems to be no standard "one setting works all situations" setup, and I'm sure Sony would not include the CINE gammas if they did not have a real, practical value. But in my estimation, I'm not convinced that CINE captures the maximum possible range to the record media. The hot spots in a scene are toned down, but I don't see any additional detail in the gradients that cross from upper greys to super white.
Somewhere on the net, I recall that someone did some testing with a scope and a chart and published the waveform steps for each of the 8 gamma settings. That would help to clarify what these curves are doing to the signal, a lot better than relying on the LCD to measure results.
Certainly, CINE3 is really good if you are capturing actualities that have to go direct to broadcast, but then there is a STD curve that also limits at 100IRE, which is punchier.
In summation, carefully study the camera's response to the types of scenes you are shooting for a given project and choose the curve that looks best, or use a STND4 gamma and create the "look" in post later on, if the luxury of time is available.
 
i was relying just on the LCD itself. just out of curiosity, what would your KNEE settings be on a typical bright/contrasty sunny day? please include Point, Slope, and Knee SAT Level.

thanks Mark.
 
I often keep the knee around 95-100 and the slope in the +60 range.
Auto Knee seems to assume a threshold around +93, but you lose some of the super whites. So there are times when either option might be better.
I leave the Knee Sat at 50. Too much and you may get some odd transitions in the chroma at the point where knee compression is at. Too little, same thing, but in the direction of monochrome.

I did some testing in-studio with a contrasty scene, that including a reflected glare from a desk lamp for the super-white.
I found that if I set the knee above 100, manual, I can get IRE 109 on all STD gamma settings, even if the Gain is set to -3dB. If I set the knee to 100 or use auto knee, super white tops at IRE 108.
I checked the Cine gammas and they are 104, 96, 103 and 104, respectively 1-4, with gain at -3dB. So that pretty much settles any question as to whether you can get the full dynamic range at -3dB. It appears that you can and that means pushing the noise down by 3dB. Only drawback is you give up some low light sensitivity, and CINE2 gamma curve tops out at 96 IRE.

It's good to note that there is good, usable information above IRE100, and with the appropriate tools in an NLE, this range can be remapped to 0-100IRE without truncating the upper end of the whites.
 
Still trying for "film" look

Still trying for "film" look

Okay, I've had this camera for a few months, and I like it. I've never been much of a monkey wrench with it until now. I shot a short a few weeks ago. I did the whole cine 2 setting, 24p and what not. Didn't look film. At all. Looked like a video trying to be film.

I saw another short shot on the same camera that looked totally like film. Looked awesome.

What are your recommendations and settings for really getting a true film look, not just a video camera pretending? I've heard the shutter set to 1/48 was supposed to help, but it still doesn't really have a good look.

What do you do?
 
Don't forget... the "Film Look" is not JUST the camera. That's a start. My "look" is made mostly in Apple's "Color" program. There's where the magic for me takes place.
 
One of the things that I, personally, associate with 'filmic look' is slow, sweeping pans, and jib & dolly shots where the camera just seems to float over the scene with transparent smoothness. Frenetic hand held movements just scream 'video' to me.

Framerate
Dynamic range
Gamma curve
Color rendering
Grain structure

are some of the attributes we associate with film.
 
Ah yes... Correct you are Mark! You're now heading to "composition" as a filmic tool. The slow subtle camera moves like smooth push-ins, pull-outs, (Not Zooms) , or tracking with the actors. I've really hate the absolutely over used "shakey camera" style that tries to shout "Oh, I'm so cool".
 
My frank opinion is that shakey camera work looks just plain sloppy. I like the huge vistas in the earlier films like Gone with the Wind. THAT was cinematography. Let's face it: a lot of life is viewed from stationary positions, unless we're running a footrace, or riding a motocycle, etc. We direct our gaze, we turn out head, the eyes dart around, but when we find the target, generally the field of view is somewhat static.

A well thought-out shot, where light is used to 'paint' the scene in a creative way, somewhat like those old Twilight Zone episodes, or that 1963 movie The Haunting (of Hill House), in which a lot of darkness saturates the frame, but for a few ribbons of light that dramatically illuminates the characters' faces and amplifies the character of their expressions. Cinematic lighting is a lot like a Picasso painting--lighting is the subject.

I used to use paint with light techniques in still photography. That was where you keep the shutter open for several seconds and you move the light source around to 'paint' the subject. A good DP should paint with light in a similar manner, but with consideration to the temporal nature of motion pictures.
 
I loved doing that when I was a kid. Others have taken that to an artform...even using strobe flashes instead of continuous beams of a flashlight.

Now I think we're really off topic...but love your thoughts Mark!
 
basspig said:
Here are three that I have been working on. For weddings, fine detail and night shooting:


PP1 STANDARD PP2 WEDDING PP3- FINE DET "PP4
Night"
MATRIX ON ON ON ON
Select STD Cinema Cinema High SAT
Level 0 +20 0 +10
Phase 0 0 0 0
R-G 0 0 0
R-B 0 0 0
G-R 0 0 0
G-B 0 0 0
B-R +16 0 0
B-G 0 0 0
COLOR CORRECTION OFF OFF OFF OFF
WHITE OFF OFF OFF OFF
Offset A 0 +1 0 -2
Offset B 0 +1 0 +2
Offset ATW +1 0 0
PRESET WHITE 3200 3500 4500 6500
DETAIL ON ON ON OFF
Level 0 -30 +20 0
Frequency 0 +80 +80 0
Crispening 0 0
H/V Ratio 0 0
White Limiter +80 +80
Black Limiter +80 +80
V DTL Creation Y Y
Knee APT Level 0 0
SKINTONE DETAIL ON ON OFF OFF
Level -90
KNEE ON OFF ON ON
Auto-knee ON OFF Off
Point 90 70 75
Slope 0 +20 +25
Knee SAT level 0 50 50
GAMMA Level 0 +15 +10 -5
Select STD4 CINE3 STD4 STD4
BLACK 0 0 0 -1
BLACK GAMMA 0 0 0 +50
LOW KEY SAT 0 +5 0 +20
Click to expand...

I'm having trouble reading this. Some settings don't have 4 choices, so I'm not sure which applies to what. Does anyone have some good Night/Low light PPs? Something for dark clubs with badly lit bands.
 
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Honestly I've had the best results shooting in low light with the PP turned off and shooting 720 30p or 60p. (720 is brighter than 1080) Also turn the shutter off.
 
720/24P gives the highest luma signal of the available formats/frame rates.

Tested by aiming the camera at a white card in dim light and using the built in light meter to take percentage readings.
 
MitchLewis said:
Honestly I've had the best results shooting in low light with the PP turned off and shooting 720 30p or 60p. (720 is brighter than 1080) Also turn the shutter off.
Click to expand...

Is this because the EX1 uses the whole chip at any resolution? I mean rather than cutting off the extra when one chooses 720 over 1080. Some cameras do that.

Anyway I'm suprised nobody other than BassPig has tried to develop a low loght PP for clubs. I'll remember that 720 30p or 24p is better though. I'd still like something that stretches the low light ability without just having no PP going on.
 
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