EVF Upon Delivery Please

M

Metaphorpix

Member
I've been visualizing what it's going to be like to actually operate the Red One once it is delivered. I shoot a lot of documentaries. Not having an EVF when the camera arrives makes me wonder how practical it is going to be. How many of us can actually work without an EVF? How easy will it be to do handheld shooting without an EVF? Capturing exteriors will be quite challenging in many cases. If I had to pick between an onboard monitor or an EVF when the camera is delivered, I'd go for the EVF as it is such a basic necessity that can be used in all shooting situations. It seems rather odd to me to purchase a camera that comes with one as an option.

I also wonder how easy it will be to pull the Red One out of the bag and just start shooting. Will we have to take twenty or thrity minutes to get all of the attachments, drives, monitors, handles, and whatever else gets hooked up to the Rail or Cage before we can start shooting? Unless you are on a well crewed feature, that gets real tired, real quick. How easy will it be to go from a handheld configuration to mounting the rig on a tri-pod? Will the shoulder mount on the Rail come off easily, exposing a mechanism that will allow the rail to be mounted directly on a tri-pod? How much time will that take? If it's more complex then cameras that are already out there, I respectfully suggest that this needs to be rethought.

The Red Camera excites me to no end. I have a deposit on a Red One and the Zoom lens. I hope when it arrives I'll be able to configure it so that it is as easy to use from an ergonomic context as a Vaircam, F-900, or HVX. A mind-blowing image is a great thing, but a camera that's user friendly, and ready to roll when you pull it out of the bag is just as important.

Best Wishes to the Red Team,

Dave Dessel

Red #: 522
 
Set up

Set up

Good points Dave, rest asurred that we understand these speed of camera setup issues and have solutions in hand. Its good to get this feedback - forces us to continually re-evaluate our design - rather than waiting to the end of the process before showing you everything.
 
on fast and easy setup

Been thinking about the menues and functions. When I hand over a camera to an assistant, sometimes by accident a menue item will have been changed (you can't always work with your most trusted people). Perhaps it is possible to give a name to a set of settings and have that name always be clearly visible so that if someone else have been handling the camera you can see in one quick look that everything is as it should be.

And perhaps there is something like Basic 4K and Basic 2K that is a fast way to get out of any personalized settings and would also work well if you just picked the camera out of the box. You are probably doing this already, but the point was just to have the name of the setting visible in one glance.
 
And perhaps there is something like Basic 4K and Basic 2K that is a fast way to get out of any personalized settings and would also work well if you just picked the camera out of the box. You are probably doing this already, but the point was just to have the name of the setting visible in one glance.
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Good thinking:)

I also love the fact that red are trying their best to get the camera to "look good out of the box". A fully professional camera is going to be hard (but most satisfying) to operate well, having to learn colour correcting in post would be another full learning curve. I still find it hard to come to terms with the brilliance of reds vision for this camera.

Michael
 
Just to make the point really clear on the viewfinder issue, when the Red Team starts testing the camera in outdoor conditions especially in bright sunlight, I think the absolute need for an EVF upon delivery will be obvious.

-Dave Dessel
 
off topic of the EVF but on topic of viewing so...

what if you are making a super high contrast production in black and white in the style of the cartoon movies or an ultra saturated commercial or if you have a close encounters kind of wrap around light

then you might benefit from being able to see the effect straight through the viewfinder or on the screen, so you will upload your curve or settings or whatever to the camera to get the look that you want embedded into the preview of the raw file

But then as you know that you are anyway going to keep adjusting this stuff in post, you might want to be able to view what it looks like on the raw file with the flip of a switch.

So say you have your clients watching the popped colors of the commercial on a monitor, then you have another monitor watching what is really going on at the raw file level at the same time.

would it then be possible to upload the function of greenscreen to
 
Viewing RAW

Viewing RAW

You might wish for the option to switch VF and monitoring outputs between two different color correction settings - say basic REC 709 and your colorized FX version - but you wouldn't want to show the RAW footage to your client....
Trust me you really wouldn't.

Good news is RED ONE lets you follow the first path, so this isn't an issue.
 
Great input Metaphorpix. I couldn't agree with you more. The Red camera is the most exciting thing I've seen the inception digital video. However, from my point-of-view, speed is as important if not the most important thing for the independent or even studio filmmaker. When I say speed, I'm talking about what happens from the moment you take the camera out of the bag all the way through post production. Any bottle-necks in the entire work flow slow down the creative process. One of the reasons DV was so successfull is it's run-and-gun mobility. That's something I don't want to lose as we move up to 4K.

Even in the studio system, mobility and speed in cameras has been the direction for years. As film cameras became lighter, directors were more able to take advantage of the mobility in their creative choices, improvise and innovate on the set more easily and have much more varied and dynamic cinematography.

For the independent filmmaker, it goes beyond just mobility, although that is a critical factor. Having, quick easy access to all buttons, viewfinders, configurations and other necessities is so important as Metaphorix put so well.

As a still photographer twenty-five years ago, I remember buying a Hasselblad because I wanted a bigger negative. After using it for a while, I retired it to studio only in favor of my Olympus because the trade-off in mobility was not worth it. I wanted to move, to be free to catch that spontaneous moment and the hasselblad was too cumbersome. The shaper image was not enough of a trade off. 35mm was a good balance for me. Although the metaphor is not perfect, it still applies.

The best film camera in the world is one that has a phenomenal image and that is the easiest, fastest to configure and use. And very mobile. Apple Computer is a good examle of one of those companies that seems to understand this philosophy in the products they create (most often).

From what I've seen, Red's team is second-to-none. But I also know that when you're in the middle of such high innvation and creativity it helps to hear a few viewpoints from outside. It might even be a good idea to make several short films during the process -- ask a few directors to help as a pilot of sorts. See what happens. I'm sure Red will discover so many things that would make the camera just that much better. That's what usually happens in the first year of a product release as thousands of people take the camera out into the field -- then the second and third relase of the camera fixes these issues. But it would be so much nicer to smooth out any unanticipated rough edges before the first camera is sold. It's exciting.
 
Itotah,

Your idea of field testing the camera with the production of some short films is great. Much could be learned from that exercise.

I really like your Metaphorical comparison of still cameras. I also sold my Hasselblad for a Leica M6 for the same reasons you mentioned. Afterwards, my photography became much more spontaneous, interesting and free from the cumbersome nature of the waist level finder and the clunky ergonomics of the Hassy. It was just too slow to work with.

The viewing system is really a major component that defines how the user actually relates to the camera. It's placement determines how your body interacts with the unit. Body comfort when operating is very important as it affects one's ability to be creative and in the moment. Of course, the ability to see what the camera is recording in all lighting environments is critical.

I'm sorry if I'm being somewhat redundant, but I am very passionate about having a properly placed EVF (or other solution) when the camera is delivered. Otherwise, the system will not be complete until it is available. What a challenge it will be to shoot outdoors especially if this is not addressed from the start.

It is clear the brilliant team at Red knows all of this. It will be great fun to see what they come up with.
 
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I'd like to see RED in a run and gun - with lense on a tripod fully loaded. I think that would lesson a few of our fears. The more real world shots even in SGI would make RED more real.

I love the red glow with no lense and smoke - however, I'd rather see it like all the other cameras ie - Panavision fully loaded on a tripod in the marketplace. ART is cool. Great Product delivered as shown is even better. Let us see, and give you more feedback... lockdown is close... let us help.
 
Metaphorpix said:
The viewing system is really a major component that defines how the user actually relates to the camera. It's placement determines how your body interacts with the unit. Body comfort when operating is very important as it affects one's ability to be creative and in the moment.
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I couldn't agree more. And along these lines, does anyone know if the EVF will be able to extend over to the left eye whilst the camera is on the right shoulder? For goofy shooters like myself, that would make things much more comfortable. I understand that the VF is mounted on an arm, but from the pictures it's hard to tell how far it will reach.

My apologies if this has been answered already.

Regards,

Jacob
 
The H series Hasselblad have perfect alignment in the viewfinder with their standard lens, when you put it up to your eye there is no change in what your right eye sees, just the field of view is limited on the camera eye. Therefore it becomes extremely comfortable to keep both eyes open, a new thing for me.

You'd know when somebody is going to walk into frame or if the job is about looking into the camera it gives great connection to the subject. (just like frank in the avatar)

Maybe if there is a zoom in the viewfinder connected to the lens electronically it would be possible to maintain this relationship if wanted. Instead of the image getting bigger and smaller in a rigid frame, the frame expands and contracts like in some old rangefinders.
 
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jacobr said:
... And along these lines, does anyone know if the EVF will be able to extend over to the left eye whilst the camera is on the right shoulder? For goofy shooters like myself, that would make things much more comfortable. I understand that the VF is mounted on an arm, but from the pictures it's hard to tell how far it will reach.

My apologies if this has been answered already.

Regards,

Jacob
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Whilst at IBC, I was assured by Jim Jannard himself that it would be easy to place the EVF in just about any position. I, for one, want to be able to put it on the right side of the camera to shoot on my left shoulder (with my left eye).

Still no info as to when it will be available (or its pricing).

Cheers,
Damien
 
we need the evf with the camera, I don't care a thing about the lcd, can'[t shoot in direct sunlight with it, even under a hood...btdt does not work.
 
Metaphorpix said:
Just to make the point really clear on the viewfinder issue, when the Red Team starts testing the camera in outdoor conditions especially in bright sunlight, I think the absolute need for an EVF upon delivery will be obvious.

-Dave Dessel
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We can always revert to good ole "dark cloth" draped over your head days. Ala large format phtography!

Lets assume the EVF doesnt ship.. you can always use a viewfinder tent with a hole punched through. Lemons and all.
 
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