Everything I know about mics so far.

'pends on how close or far from the squeege you are and how much of it you really want in your waffle. Know what I mean?

I like hypers. I can pull back if I want more squeege. No gettin' around it; you can't get rid of squeege once you got it, regardless of which method you use.

Ty
 
Ty, you are a hoot! So help me here, make some affordable recommendations for a pair of hypers.

I mentioned earlier that Dave likes the Rode NT5 pair over the Oktava, but they are cardioid. Looking for other possible options that can ride side by side in shock mounts, about 7" apart on a horizontal bar.
 
When you say affordable, what is your budget for a pair of mics? That was one thing I never found out. If you want a pair of hypers for under a grand, then you might be stuck with the Oktavas. Otherwise, a schoeps pair, or nuemann pair would work. I have to stress that I personally feel that for recording BG's, I REALLY like recording MS. It's much more natural sounding. A single point MS mic would work great, like a VP88, or Neumann RSM191.

-Dave
 
Good evening to you. I've been trying to do some research and reading behind the scenes. Thanks for your observations today.

I am afraid that the last two mics you mentioned are way out of my personal budget. I know they would do a GREAT job, but I would have to sell a couple of my children to afford that much quality, but I thank you for your helpful recommendations. I realize you get to rub elbows with the great all day long. Can I be one of your cheap friends?

To answer your direct question, I'd like to stay around $500 or less for the ambient stereo configuration.

I like the price of the Oktavas and the Rode NT5 pair. I don't have a problem with the NT5s, if they would do the job correctly. They have good reviews and thumbs up for the cost; better in many respect than the Oktavas. I was just a little concerned about the pattern. Of course, I have not seen a chart for the MK012s hypers to compare the two different patterns of the products on paper--emphasis on the word 'paper'.

I already have one 4073. That's why I had asked earlier about using a second unit to acheive my desired sound, from the POV of the camera. It has some pickup on the side, but not much.

You have my personal respect and honor. It would be very helpful to make the best comparison of the two affordable products--the pros and cons of each. If there is nothing else out there, then I can accept that, too! I'm just asking questions that are helpful to me, to make the best decision. I'll bet others are out there, reading this and wondering as well.

A reminder from my comments earlier. One of the benefits of the Oktava hyper was providing a good sounding close mic for interior use over the characteristics of using a shotgun indoors (side rejection). For the money, it sounded pretty good.

You are a wealth of wisdom. I enjoy your commentary. It is always helpful and educational to those of us who are still learning. Thanks for asking, and thanks for sharing.
 
The AT 4053 are less expensive than (and don't sound as good as) the Schoeps cmc641. I've seen them for $499 each.

Ty Ford
 
tyreeford said:
The AT 4053 are less expensive than (and don't sound as good as) the Schoeps cmc641. I've seen them for $499 each.
Click to expand...

Ty,

I hope you were talking and typing about the AT4073 shotgun mike, not the '4053'. I'm was considering matching the 4073 that I already own, in qwest of my stereo recording. I can get a second one in B stock for $330.

I did a Google on the AT 4053 you mentioned (just in case):
"Audio-Technica AT4053A-EL is a hyper-cardioid element for the AT4900A body and power supply."

Looks like that element is about $200, and you still need to have the AT4900A body (which I don't own).

I don't think you were talking about that mike or the Schoeps being $499--but I could be wrong.

Have you had any experience, or known others who have used the Rode NT5 (NT4) products? I would like to have a vote of confidence from others. They certainly look nice. Just wonder how they sound and if they would do the job correctly?
 
Thanks for your clarification and thanks for the helpful observation, as well.

Seeing how I don't have an extra $1k, I'll have to be more resourceful...perhaps a rich uncle will remember me in his will...whoops, I don't have any uncles :-(

Thank you, Ty.
 
FYI you can get an Audio Technica AT-4053a (hyper) from B&H for $395.95 plus free shipping.

I'd STILL suggest you go with the SE300b/CK93 (hyper) from AKG which is in that ballpark. If that's too rich for your blood then we're back to the Oktava.

Since you're starting out at zero you might want to consider the AKG option... even though it's more initially you can just buy different capsules to swap out on the SE300b mic body... so once you've got that "foundation" paid for you can get other high-quality mics with just the price of each capsule.

Ty and everybody else will tell you the same thing too... it's more important to use a mic properly and get it close enough then it is to get the best mic you possibly can. (Obviously I endorse spending as much as you can AND using the mic properly... but I'm just sayin'...)
 
MattinSTL said:
FYI you can get an Audio Technica AT-4053a (hyper) from B&H for $395.95 plus free shipping.

I'd STILL suggest you go with the SE300b/CK93 (hyper) from AKG...Since you're starting out at zero you might want to consider the AKG option
Click to expand...

The original question has been (given the budget of $500), which way should I go next to get my ambient stereo sound?

I already have a new AT-4073a (shotgun), so I am not starting out from ground zero in that department. Do I purchase another 4073a, which I can get B Stock for $330 locally--will that give me my package sound?

or

Do I spend the money on two new and different types of mics--which will give me the package sound I am looking for, since two (2) shotguns will not do it.

Suggestions thus far have been:
1) two (2) matched Oktava MK012 (hypers) = $378 (list price)
2) two (2) matched Rode MT5 (cardioids) = $350 (Dave recommends)
3) two (2) Audio Technica AT-4053a (hypers) $396 ea. = $792 (special pricing)
4) two (2) AKG SE300b/CK93 (hypers) $387 ea. = $774 (special pricing)

Ok Matt...I'm ready for you.
Geeeee! This really going to hurt.
 
Sorry, I forgot that we covered the fact that you're not starting at zero.

I think you'll find that stereo recording won't be that frequent of a thing after you do it for a while... it's really cool, but it's also kind of gimmicky. I know you don't think so right now, but eventually you will. For straight up audio I love it, but for video it doesn't always give you the best result for television. No dialog is ever done in stereo that I know of... but anyway...

My point is that I'd probably go with the two Oktavas... since the stereo thing is important to you right now... and earlier I wasn't trying to avoid the subject of stereo shotguns, I just meant that it's rare to see somebody using TWO shotguns in any kind of a stereo setup. I've seen two guns used together in what might LOOK like a stereo setup, but it's just a way to better cover two sources, rather then any focus on stereo space.

So anyway, since you have exteriors covered with that 4073a you could get interiors covered with an Oktava, and then the second one is just to do your stereo thing. If you have the cash to spend... I do think the 300b/ck93 is a great option, but you still need windprotection and shockmounting... so that's the main reason I often turn to the Oktava. I like good mics and if you can spend more then I say why not... but I'd rather see you get good windprotection and shockmounts if it comes down to making the budget.

My economy choice is #1... my ideal choice is #4. If you do get serious about the AKG route then you should send an email to cavell at rvacanada dot com and ask for current pricing on those... and tell her you're considering a pair ('cause that may get you a little better price, but I don't know)... then calculate the currency exchange from Canadian... then compare that quote with one you get by calling Trew.

I still use both my Oktavas and my AKG and I like both of them... so either way you'll be happy. I just think it's nuts to get another 4073a for the stereo "trick" and then still be left without a good indoor mic... but I will say the price you quoted is insanely cheap for that 4073a. It's too bad you already have one. That thing would disappear in a heartbeat if you accidentally said the location of it. (so don't unless you are positive you don't want it)
 
Thank you, thank you, thank you. That's a lot of thanks for a job well done!

Matt, you write things so clearly that even a blind man could read them. I agree with your helpful descriptions. The cheap route makes the most sense.

I will do as you suggested, however, and contact cavell. I can also contact Trew. Hopefully, B&H will be back in their offices soon, and I can get them to respond with a price, as well. They are out of their office, more than they are in, during this special month for them. I, personally, am proud that they stand up for their beliefs.

Good Folks!

Thanks again. A mighty fine job tonight.
 
MattinSTL said:
FYI you can get an Audio Technica AT-4053a (hyper) from B&H for $395.95 plus free shipping.

I'd STILL suggest you go with the SE300b/CK93 (hyper) from AKG which is in that ballpark. If that's too rich for your blood then we're back to the Oktava.

Since you're starting out at zero you might want to consider the AKG option... even though it's more initially you can just buy different capsules to swap out on the SE300b mic body... so once you've got that "foundation" paid for you can get other high-quality mics with just the price of each capsule.

Ty and everybody else will tell you the same thing too... it's more important to use a mic properly and get it close enough then it is to get the best mic you possibly can. (Obviously I endorse spending as much as you can AND using the mic properly... but I'm just sayin'...)
Click to expand...
:thumbsup: First my thanks for the great posts you have under sound .
This subject is always less respected until it is too late .
If I may ask you a few questions
they are as follows
I have at the advice of the late great Bruce Scott a audio technica at 897
which I believe is a short shot gun and adequate for a two shot I was reading your post and you havew some pretty strong opinions on mikes or should I say you had some pretty decisive results with the mics you liked .
What do you think of the AT897?
I also have a very old set of akg mics ck 22 (omni directional mic plus the ck 1 ,ck2 , ck 8 and the long true shot gun ck9.Have you or your sound pro friends an opinion on these mics ?
i have used the akg ck8 short shot gun on two shot set ups on some features at the advice of a universal studio sound mixer named Ed Sommers ..that ck8 works very well with my old nagra 3 recorders .
Thanks again for anyfeedback or reflection you can give me on the use of these mics and thanks for the great posts
All The Best
Bruce
:thumbsup:
 
Bruce I'm sorry I can't give you an experienced opinion on any of the mics you just listed! (most of the mics I talk about are ones that I bought) The reason I plug the 897 is because it was the only/best choice (shotgun) at it's price point for a while (I mean the only choice that I'd buy) and now with the Rode NT mics I'd have to check them both out in detail before choosing, but I still think the 897 is for sure the first or second best choice at that price (and the margin of victory wouldn't be much for either mic over the other). Also if you check the paper on the 897 (yeah I KNOW paper specs aren't all that, but they do say something and in my experience you get a pretty good idea of what a mic will sound like based on 3 specs, sensitivity, polar pattern, and frequency response) so anyway, you can see even on paper that the 897 is a much better choice then some other mainstays that cost even more.

And for the older AKG's I'm sorry but I just don't have anything to base a judgement on those... I have some friends who are strictly into music and they love older mics... so maybe I can ask one of them, but honestly if a mic sounds good then it is good in my book.
 
Bruce Morgan said:
:thumbsup: First my thanks for the great posts you have under sound .
This subject is always less respected until it is too late .
If I may ask you a few questions
they are as follows
I have at the advice of the late great Bruce Scott a audio technica at 897
which I believe is a short shot gun and adequate for a two shot I was reading your post and you havew some pretty strong opinions on mikes or should I say you had some pretty decisive results with the mics you liked .
What do you think of the AT897?
I also have a very old set of akg mics ck 22 (omni directional mic plus the ck 1 ,ck2 , ck 8 and the long true shot gun ck9.Have you or your sound pro friends an opinion on these mics ?
i have used the akg ck8 short shot gun on two shot set ups on some features at the advice of a universal studio sound mixer named Ed Sommers ..that ck8 works very well with my old nagra 3 recorders .
Thanks again for anyfeedback or reflection you can give me on the use of these mics and thanks for the great posts
All The Best

Bruce
:thumbsup:
Click to expand...


very nice mikes - i didn't work adges with these ( 451+ck1,8,9)
very worm sound for the ck-1
i still have completely new foam for the 9 ( the big piramide)
some memories before the Shoepses and Sennheisers came in
 
MattinSTL said:
Since you're starting out at zero you might want to consider the AKG option... even though it's more initially you can just buy different capsules to swap out on the SE300b mic body... so once you've got that "foundation" paid for you can get other high-quality mics with just the price of each capsule.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I am a still photographer whose son is studying film. Basically he is interested in shorts and features and has a very limited budget. We picked up the dvx and have zero accessories at the moment. I figured in a pinch he would be able to use my tripod and some hot lights until he can afford the correct equipment. Sound is another matter. I have carefully read this entire thread and BOY! do I have a headache.

Since he is starting out with zero I see the logic in going with the SE300b/CK93 and build from there. However, the cost of the 4073 and a Oktava would be fairly equivalent if not cheaper then the SE300b with the hyper and shotgun caps You would also have the benefit of two separate mics if you need a second input. So my question is, which is really the best way to go. Are multiple inputs more beneficial then a high quality single.

Thanks,
Reno

P.S. Great stuff in this thread.
 
Reno said:
Hi,

I am a still photographer whose son is studying film. Basically he is interested in shorts and features and has a very limited budget. We picked up the dvx and have zero accessories at the moment. I figured in a pinch he would be able to use my tripod and some hot lights until he can afford the correct equipment. Sound is another matter. I have carefully read this entire thread and BOY! do I have a headache.

Since he is starting out with zero I see the logic in going with the SE300b/CK93 and build from there. However, the cost of the 4073 and a Oktava would be fairly equivalent if not cheaper then the SE300b with the hyper and shotgun caps You would also have the benefit of two separate mics if you need a second input. So my question is, which is really the best way to go. Are multiple inputs more beneficial then a high quality single.

Thanks,
Reno

P.S. Great stuff in this thread.
Click to expand...

The SE300B with the hyper cap is a lot cheaper than the 4073a. If he is just getting started in the film aspect I would recommend that you look at the AT897. Great all around mic that he can grow with but get good results out of now.
 
Reno said:
Since he is starting out with zero I see the logic in going with the SE300b/CK93 and build from there. However, the cost of the 4073 and a Oktava would be fairly equivalent if not cheaper then the SE300b with the hyper and shotgun caps You would also have the benefit of two separate mics if you need a second input. So my question is, which is really the best way to go. Are multiple inputs more beneficial then a high quality single.
Click to expand...


This was the crux of the discussion that Yankee and I had back and forth through posts and PM's on the merits of Oktava/4073a versus SE300b/ck93/ck98... and I'll tell you what I told him. There is some benefit in having two seperate mics... since we've covered that totally I'll focus on the merits of the AKG. You get one of the best hypers (short of a Scheops) available... hypers are for interiors and the ck93 is a VERY good hyper... but you get a gun that's maybe just slightly inferior to the 4073a... and maybe NOT even inferior, but just a slightly different flavor. FROM MY EXPERIENCE ONLY I suggest the Oktava/4073a option... because I have a lot of time in with both of those mics... but I'm also a BIG fan of AKG... and since you'll be getting a really good hyper the question really comes down to what you'd rather have between the ck98 and 4073a. That is the question that I'm really not qualified to answer, but again, I'll tell you what I told Yankee... I bought the AKG ULS system based on just a few clips I heard, a little bit that I read, on-paper specs, and a gut feeling... and I've absolutely loved this mic system. At this point I've bought all the caps and accessories except for the omni cap... but I got everything else! So like I said... I am a BIG fan of AKG mics... BUT I still use my Oktavas all the time... so really I don't think you can go wrong either way. The advantages of one over the other will be matters of personal preferrence... and you probably won't even know the difference until you (or your son) gets a lot of mic'ing experience.

Sorry if that isn't a precise enough answer for you, but the fact is I don't think you can make a bad choice here... either route will get you good results.

Also if you check the places I've said to check the pricing shouldn't be much different between the two choices.
 
Matt's gotten so used to the precision needed in handling the Octavas to avoid handling noise, that he's forgotten how frustrating that could be to someone relatively new to video and sound.

I say go with the AKG system, as it will be a bit more "forgiving" as he builds up his chops.
 
I know you've been here before Joe, but welcome back... man if you somehow find time to be a frequently contributing part of this forum we'll all be better off for it.

For those who don't know, Joe is about the most stand-up guy I've met. He is the person you'd want your son to grow up to be. This guy has topped out his life in several areas where the rest of us would feel a sense of accomplishment to just make it in one. Since Joe comes across so humble I feel compelled to enlighten the members (unless you don't like this, in that case sorry and I'll edit)... but the gist is Joe is like me, he really cares about audio for video and he's not afraid to put his cash where his mouth is. He's got the full Schoeps system complete with blimps, cut filters, etc... he's got a 416 and an mm-1 and I have no idea where he got those... plus all the wireless and everything else you could need... the guy is definitely into sound.

Welcome (or welcome back) Joe.

Joe makes a good point about the Oktava too... maybe I should factor that into my suggestions more. I use a graphite boom (acoustically dead) with a k-tek that's got the soft bands... so that's probably why I don't get much handling... but when a green guy is booming I hear a couple bumps... so maybe I'll start factoring that into my advice. The AKG is a much thicker and more inert construction and sounds great on top of that... it's ironic that the AKG ULS (that I got) is right back to having high handling noise... why didn't they construct the ULS like the Blue Line? I don't know.
 
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