Everything I know about mics so far.

tyreeford said:
Um, Gee Matt, I don't have that much money. Can you suggest something less expansive that would be as good or better?

Thanks,

Ty
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Yeah... don't bring me down... hey look, here's a self-portrait of me. :huh:

I used to have a bristling full head of hair... before I pulled it all out.

Seriously, if anybody reading this wants a decent sound kit just start picking off items ONE AT A TIME as you can afford them... off that list. Pick whatever you need FIRST and get that... then add each part as funds allow.

The one thing that I always come back to is that this isn't the Canon ZR45 forum... Your camera wasn't $300... You had to come up with $3200 at SOME point.

I don't make CRAP for cash and I can come up with the funds to build a reasonable sound kit (okay BEYOND reasonable, but whatever)... so stay home for a couple weekends... put off that new car that you don't need yet... do whatever! I have lots of friends who are interested in the video stuff I'm doing and they're SHOCKED at how much some of the gear costs... "Man that's NUTS! A thousand dollar mic!? Jeez you're CRAZY!"

Then that guy drives off in a FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLAR truck!

Or another friend who thinks I'm crazy with this stuff... just before they sit down to watch CSI on a TEN THOUSAND DOLLAR television.

Sure, this stuff isn't cheap... but it's not as pricey as scuba diving was... or lots of other sh*t I got into... so if you're just not into audio and you don't REALLY care that much about improving your audio for video quit kidding yourself and just admit that it isn't REALLY that important to you!

It's easy for me to understand why guys like Ty or Oleg get so pissed when somebody comes along that WANTS professional sound but isn't willing to do or spend anything to get it. These guys make their living on doing sound... and every sound guy knows the same aggravations of a shoot... NOBODY has respect for sound UNTIL the shoot is over... and it's either good, or it isn't, based largely on the work of the sound guy.

The sound guy is the unsung hero of any production... ironic statement isn't it?
 
No secret to that. On the set, crew and usually the director unless he/she is also listening on cans have no idea what the mics are picking up. They can watch the monitor to see what the DP is doing and get off on that, but they don't have a clue about the sound. Are the levels good, is there too much bleed, is there a weird reflection thing happening, is there a distant car, truck, plane, dog, generator, is one actor amazing louder than the other, what was that buzz, is the necklace about to hit the lav or did it just hit the lav? And about a hundred other little tthings that can bust a take.

You want to know more? Go to my website, click on the location audio link and download The Letter.

Oh, and please don't tell me what mic to use and where to put it. Don't get pissed at me when I tell you the take was a bust for audio because I heard a bus, plane or something. And after the LD takes forty minutes to tweek the lights, don't jump up my ass when I need three minutes to change batteries, reposition a mic or swap out a cable.

Thanks,

Your Pal,

Ty Ford
 
That's the funniest post I ever read... I know YOU'RE not laughing, but anybody who's ever done sound for pay is... There's humor in truth.

My first paying gig was through a lady I met working on documentaries... some really serious medical stuff. That proved to be a rapid education on everything that can go wrong for sound.

That's how I grew to love the mic system I use for a lot of stuff now. I have -10db, 0db, +6db... and that can be combined with flat, 75hz cut, and 150hz cut... all on the mic. It's amazing how penetrating a delivery truck is!

Hey have you ever been doing a serious interview with a hyper pointing more or less right down the subject's throat? Sure you start off at a slight angle so the speaker isn't DEAD-ON axis, but they move or somehow the mic get's a shot straight to their upper-intestine...

"Let's break for lunch!"

...20 minutes later...

"So as I was saying... this is a very serious disease... WEEEweeewee fizzz blurble... that we're fighting."

What's the excuse you come up with when everybody sees you sitting there with cans on and seemingly on the edge of bursting into laughter while everyone's listening to a terrible story? Can you say... "hey let's give this lady 20 more minutes to digest that sandwich!"... especially when you know you have to be done in 10 minutes...

...and nobody likes the idea of skipping lunch... ha!

Good times... good times.
 
Can"t use an AT4073a for interior interviews???

Can"t use an AT4073a for interior interviews???

Hmm...some of these discussions are getting discouraging.....I purchased an AT 4073a for about $530 and I am now being told in one thread that it is no good for interior work. Its sensitivity, in the opinion of the poster, picks up every noise in the vicinity. I plan to use it for interviews on a stand with a shock mount. I do not intend to use it for recording acting or such. What gives? This $530 mic is no good for interview work after all?
 
You can use anything that works... if it does okay for your interviews then don't worry about it. You might have to do some careful positioning or else get it close the the interviewee... or use their body as a shield against room reflections... but basically, if you do some interior interviews and it seems like you can hear a LOT of room reflections... or other audible cues of the space... don't say I didn't warn you.

There are many types of mic... and that's why you see pages and pages of mics in any catalog... even from the same manufacturer.

The 4073a has some incredible strengths... but NO mic does EVERYTHING well. That's the breaks.

I've got about 10 different mics... I didn't buy 'em 'cause they were cute... A regular guy doesn't really need that many mics, but eventually you should have 3 or 4 at least.
 
Beaker said:
Hmm...some of these discussions are getting discouraging.....I purchased an AT 4073a for about $530 and I am now being told in one thread that it is no good for interior work. Its sensitivity, in the opinion of the poster, picks up every noise in the vicinity. I plan to use it for interviews on a stand with a shock mount. I do not intend to use it for recording acting or such. What gives? This $530 mic is no good for interview work after all?
Click to expand...

Shotguns are more omni directional at mid and low frequencies. I know I've said that 12 million times, well maybe 8 million. Again, do yourself a favor and hop over to my website and click on the OnLine Archives.

In the Video folder there's an mp4 tutorial that explains it all. NO MORE CRABBING UNTIL YOU WATCH THE VIDEO!!!!!

Ty Ford
 
MattinSTL said:
You can use anything that works...<snip>... but NO mic does EVERYTHING well. That's the breaks.
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I really love this thread. You guys hit the nail on the head with your recommendations and comments.

I wanted some suggestions from the group on stereo mic selections, especially for MattSTL, Yankee and Ty. I already sent this to Dave privately at work.

I want to record stereo audio ambience for my outdoor scenic filming with my DVX100a. Audio is my formal training, and I love the ambience imaging that stereo provides.

I looked at the single-body stereo mics from various companies, but I saw some bad reports on some of their side behavior. I had planned to use two (2) Oktava MK012 mics with the hyper-cardioid capsules. I like being able to control the width and angle of pointing with two individual mikes. The Oktavas will provide that feature at a great price.

Wind Protection:
My reading and phone conversations thus far have told me that the Severe Condition Windscreen for the Oktavas from the Sound Room are the design product of Craig Olsen at WindTech. In fact, I got to talk with Craig by phone and learned the Sound Room windscreen (above) is the same as the WindTech US-2. There is no MicMuff (fur) for this product at this time, however, he said he could crank it out in a week, if he had to.

Many, many comments on the Audio Forum have agreed that the windscreen for the Oktava is not enough, even in normal outdoor circumstances. Some readers have specified problems with the two layer $49 windscreen that the Sound Room lists. (The $49 windscreen is the same $25 Windtech UltraSeries US-2.)

Overall, it seems the recommendation is rather to spend the money on the Rycote BBG and matching Windjammer (also reads as $$'s, especially when you are talking stereo, right?). I can pay for it once, but not twice for chosing the wrong wind protection.

The reason I am concerned with wind noise is because we almost always have wind, here in Texas, and most of my creative shooting will be outdoors.

I have to mount these two Oktavas in a shock mount. Here, I had planned to follow the highly recommended K-Tek SSM route with the ultra-soft rubber mounts. The Rycote BBG and the K-Tek SSM seem to match together well--no mounting problems like with a full size blimp since the BBG is covering the module.

The K-Tek SSM terminate with female 3/8" threads, correct? I need to mount the two (2) K-Tek SSMs on a bar or plate for horizontal separation. So far, the bars and plates I have found have 5/8" microphone threads that will need to be adapted to 3/8" male threads for the two K-Tek SSM shock mounts. The center hole of the bar or plate is usually either 3/8" or 5/8"--I can make the middle hole adapt easily to the needed 3/8" female thread for the boompole.

Here's another possible alternative for the Oktavas -- I have seen the Rycote Stereo Extended Suspension (040215) and the Rycote Stereo Extended XY/MS Ball Gag Suspension Hoop (048426). I did not know if these two mounts would support the small Oktavas or not? I know these mounts are primarily designed for the small capsule head mikes. I need to depend upon your expertise with these two products, to know if they are even usable. If not, just say forget it, and I'll go back up to Option 1 above with the horizontal bar.

Side Note: Rycote list Redding Audio as their US Distributor. I dropped them a note over the weekend, since Rycote does not list the Oktava mics in their database. I mentioned the BBG especially being used with the MK012, since the guys on the forum like it. Here is their reply:

*******
"There are not many items that Rycote recommends for the Octava. Because if its flare around the capsule area, it cannot be used with a Softie. The BBG that you saw online is also not recommended by Rycote for the same reason. The only solution recommended by Rycote is a full Windshield system. For more information on pricing and availability, please contact one of our Rycote dealers listed on our website at www.reddingaudio.com.

Regards,
Patricia Glatzel - Customer Support
Redding Audio, Inc. 97 South Main Street Unit 10 Newtown, CT 06470
Phone: (203) 270.1808 Fax: (203) 270.2934 Web: www.reddingaudio.com
Exclusive U.S. Distributor of Rycote Windshields, Schoeps Microphones and Lightwave Audio Systems
*******

So, that is what I am trying to do with the Oktava hyper-cardioids--stereo imaging of ambient surroundings, and the wind protection issues.

Tell me what you think. Am I wrong trying to do it this way? I thought they might work well as directional mikes outdoors. Should I opt, instead, for using the 4073's as a pair instead? There's no sense in wasting money here on Oktavas as stereo ambience mics, if they are not going to work. I recognize their true benefits with indoor close-up miking techniques (Thanks for the great video demo, Ty).

Thanks for your wisdom and recommendations.
 
JBR,

Ty is a pro and Matt is an expert (in my opinion) with audio. I know nothing, so the only thing I could share with you would be recycled garbage that I read and couldn't stand behind anything along those lines. Ty, Oleg, & Matt(you might be able to email him still through the site, not sure) would be the people to ask, in that order. Sorry but I know nothing!
 
OK, I reread your post, and I have an idea that you are not going to like, because no audiophile will like it, but it will work, give you the desired effect you are looking for, but most importantly, it will work and save you hundreds (if not thousands) in the long and short run. This is the exact method I use to get my stereo sound:

Use 1 mic. Record as normal. Take finished file and drop into sound forge, copy R channel to left channel. Save file.

It will not give you that true stereo, but if you play with it a bit, it will work for you.

If it is the ambience you are looking for, I would just record an ambient track and then layer the two in sound forge or whatever NLE you are using. I know this doesn't seem like an ideal solution, but then again, if it aint broken...
 
Boy this is the thread that just won't die. Hey I've got no problem with that... it's ironic that this was my VERY FIRST POST ever to DVXuser... I was lurking about like I'm sure many people are right now... I felt like a refugee from the other online forums, which were becoming less and less satisfying. So I figured that I wanted to explode onto the scene with everything I had at the time... and although some of my ideas about audio for video have changed, I think most of the advice in this thread is pretty solid.

I use a stereo pair of Oktavas fairly often. All you need is any kind of flat bar to mount the K-SSM pair to and then mount that to your boom, stand, or whatever. I do Oktava stereo with the BBG/Jammer on each. You are looking at a few bucks once you get a pair of those, but I didn't like the huge ball that Rycote sells for mounting a pair inside of one blimp. I'd chalk that up to personal preferrence though.

I will put one thing frankly however... Rycote needs to get their head out of their asses on this Oktava/BBG thing. They tried to talk me out of that a long time ago and I sent an email explaining that they were DEAD WRONG about it. Sure you can't push the flared cap of the Oktava through the snug rubber hole on the BBG, but the damn thing splits in half right down the center! So you can push the XLR end of the Oktava down through that half from the inside OR you can push the Oktava up through it before you screw the cap on... Once the mic is centered in the ball you just screw the two halves of the BBG back together and it's THE PERFECT solution for the Oktava. I don't think I was the first person to order the BBG/Jammer for the Oktavas, but I had to be one of the first... all I know is there's been about a dozen people that I talk to online since then and we ALL agree that it just couldn't be any better. Wake up Rycote!

I did a comparison a while back to show the levels of wind protection, but that wasn't the best sounding test... and I don't feel like looking for it, so maybe it's time for a new test and a new thread on that. The gist of that thread is going to show you that the BBG/Jammer is incredibly effective, and while the cost seems high, it simply gets the job done. I can't vouch for a particular "gust speed" or your particular shooting circumstance, but the only thing that will be more effective then the BBG/Jammer in a high wind is going to be a full-blimp with the super-long-haired jammer. The windtech screens aren't even in the same league as the BBG alone, then when you add the fur it just gets rediculous to compare the two. For indoor shooting even the windtech is probably fine though... The level of windprotection you need depends on what you're planning to attempt with your mics... and never use more then you need. (fur attenuates highs/transparency)
 
Matt and Yankee,

Thanks for your observations and above all, taking the time to write.

Yankee, I'll keep your recommendation in mind if other things don't pan out.

Matt, thanks for the Rycote reminder. Maybe I should rephrase it and send her a response saying the same thing.

Here's where I need your expertise, especially since you own the Oktavas. For my use as stereo ambience in filming, will the Oktavas with hyper-cardioids do what I want, or do I need to try to do the same with other equipment, such as a pair of 4073's?

Ambient noise would be sounds in your own backyard with the dog next door barking in the background, traffic driving down the street, buses and trucks passing from left to right, the sound of rain. The ambient sound should come from the direction of the camera lens, such as children playing on the school playground--not just two omni mikes gathering every noise in the world. Let's call it "Directed Ambient Sound", so that is selective, from the camera's POV. It would not be on-screen talent type sound, which requires close miking.

So which is going to provide the best job for this designated effect, a pair of Okata hypers or 4073s?
 
For that effect I'd go with the Oktavas... the thing about the 4073a is it's still a shotgun and it doesn't sound as open and natural as the Oktavas will, even though it's got EXCELLENT reach and the Oktavas don't, you'll find the hypers will gather a more full stereo image... either way you'll probably be elated with the result, but for stereo imaging I just don't think you need to spend the cash for a pair of 4073a.

I'm just curious why are you so concerned about this stereo image? I mean this honestly, not sarcastically. When I use the Oktavas for stereo I use them ORTF, which means they approximate your ears... the mics point out at about 45 degrees with the heads about 7 inches apart. Picture a see-through head with the ear canals being the mic bodies and the eardrums are the mic diaphragms. This gives a really wide and deep stereo image that I like to get lost in... pop on some headphones, close your eyes, and you can remember that place perfectly.

The 4073a pair would probably be more prone to hot-spots where anything that's directly on axis with each mic will be much more pronounced.
 
One thing you need to admit about Matt's posts is he normally is pretty dead on with his descriptions... Here is a man that takes time to post...

I wanna know why you never yell though.
 
It's because the guy untying the yaht will get his arm torn off.

Damn I wish you guys ALL watched Arrested Development... I guess I need to change my signature to something more mainstream. I had Gob as an avatar for a while, and then just to be stupid I changed it to Franklin... but I think only 1 out of every 100 members knew who it was.
 
MattinSTL said:
For that effect I'd go with the Oktavas...<snip>...you'll find the hypers will gather a more full stereo image... either way you'll probably be elated with the result, but for stereo imaging I just don't think you need to spend the cash for a pair of 4073a.
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Well, first, thank you for your helpful comments. I also thought the hypers will be much more full in fidelity. On the other side of the coin, I already have a 4073 and I have a chance to pick-up a second 4073 cheaper than I can buy two (2) new Oktavas!!! Now do I have your attention?

I didn't want to buy the Oktavas, then find out later that I could have had better results with the 4073's for the same money. With your excellent background and personal inventory of equipment, I thought maybe you could speak from experience, and if possible, do a little A/B comparison for us.

Although each has their own special niche, we are comparing two $500+ mics vs. two $165 mics. That has to at least stop and make you think twice about your decision...and that's before we throw on the wind protection costs. We'll want to talk about Softies for the 4073 later. For now, let's talk mikes and stereo imaging.

MattinSTL said:
When I use the Oktavas for stereo I use them ORTF, which means they approximate your ears...<snip>... pop on some headphones, close your eyes, and you can remember that place perfectly.
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That is EXACTLY where I am trying to place the viewer in my production. I want them to feel that they are as close to being as possible. The stereo image separation is what makes that possible. I love my Audio.

Speaking of headphones, I love my Senn HD650 with Cardas cabling. Put them on and turn it up. That's where I want to be.

MattinSTL said:
The 4073a pair would probably be more prone to hot-spots where anything that's directly on axis with each mic will be much more pronounced.
Click to expand...
I was thinking that too, but at most shooting distances, hot-spots will not be a problem. Just wish I had a pair of both to demo, and then sign the check for the best in show!

Decisions...decisions
tick...tick...tick
 
I gotta' be honest with you and admit that I've never done a stereo shotgun setup... so maybe some pros on the board can comment.

I can't imagine that there's too many times when a stereo shotgun configuration is used though... in fact I've never heard of somebody doing that... unless it's to mic two people independently.

I'm intrigued by the possibility of what that could sound like, but if I was a betting man (and I actually am) I'd guess the hypers to give a much better result. I just think you'd have a more "full" spread of soundstage then you'd have with two guns... but I also considered that you could have a deeper soundstage with the guns... like I said this one is tough to call without a real experiment.

If it were me I'd probably go with the two hypers... which should be no more then $330 for the pair (plus windprotection... hence your comment about price?) But the fact is that I'm only commenting on what I already have and use... so you might get to blaze your own trail on this one... I can't give you an absolutely certain answer.

EDIT: I reread your last post and if you're THAT much of an audiophile then you have bigger nuts to crack. For as great as the DVX audio is it can get surprisingly better with a seperate recorder...

I'll try to get some stuff posted in the next day or two and you'll know that it's partially JUST for you. I already want to redo my Oktava windprotection tests and I'll just set up a pair at the same time... and you can get a grasp of the soundstage based on that... but I can already tell you it's impressive, it's just a question of whether or not the 4073a pair would be even more so.
 
Well are we talking about mics that are listed as stereo/shotgun mics or using two shotguns to create a stereo field?

A lot of folks who first come across the term "stereo/shotgun" think it's actually a stereo shotgun. It's not. It's a stereo mic and a (mono) shotgun, but not both at the same time.

The Sanken CSS-5, AT 835ST and Sennheiser 418 are examples of stereo/shotgun mics.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
tyreeford said:
Well are we talking about mics that are listed as stereo/shotgun mics or using two shotguns to create a stereo field?
Click to expand...

Hi Ty! Thanks for asking.

First, thank you for your helpful contributions. They are very much appreciated, especially your video that you took the time to make. You went the extra mile!

Re: the shotguns, this would be using two (2) 4073's to gather the stereo ambient field setting from the POV of the camera. As mentioned earlier, perhaps 7" apart at 30 to 45 degress off axis to the camera's left and right. Probably more towards 30 degrees each way, if using the shotguns. Remember, this is field recording of the setting, not a voice talent with up close miking (sorry, talent loses out on this gig :-).

We're just thinking out loud here. Lots of nice guys (like you) here who enjoy the challenge.

I'm hoping to find someone who has tried to do this before, seriously, or who has the equipiment and would be willing to render the time to try this out and give us a professional recommendation.

By the way to all, Dave has kindly recommended a nice alternative to the Oktavas that is equal in price, but higher in performance and construction quality--the Rode NT-5 (sold as a matched pair) for $350. If you want it all in one single mic housing, the NT4 with the fixed angle heads has the same technical performance for $450.

Interesting reading. Nice quality for the same money.

Check out http://www.rodemic.com for product specs and reviews.
 
JBR,

You're welcome. Seems like that little video has helped a lot of folks.

I would try dueling shotguns by positioning them so the capsules are vertically aligned.
The capsules are usually at the base of the interference tubes.

This will help to ensure mono compatibility should the audio ever end up in mono and sometimes it just does.

Ty Ford
 
That's a great technical help, Ty. Since you are one of the "wizards" around here, how about taking your best guess, or call upon those in the industry that you know, about the situation I have described of recording an ambient stereo soundtrack.

Which will work best? Cardioids (high quality), Hypers, or Shotguns.

Which technique or alignment will work best? XY, M/S, or Matt's favorite-ORTF-that approximate your ears.

Most situations will be outdoors; could be some interiors. The stereo imaging will place the viewer "in" that situation with the true stereo imaging separation.

Thanks for any of your recommendations!
 
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