Everything I know about mics so far.

Matt,

Thanks for sharing your info with us, I've been sifting through it for days now. Now, that said, I still have yet to see a thread that can direct me to a good choice of reasonably priced mics to include in a (relatively) complete audio package. Before I get yelled at by everyone here (seriously though, you guys are the friendliest message board out there) I just want to say that I've also listened to all the audio samples in the "Mic Shootout," borrowed Jay Rose's book from my school's library, and poured over B&H, The Sound Room, Trew's Audio, and EVS in hopes of compiling a well-rounded audio package for just about any set-up I'll encounter (ENG/EFP- indoor and outdoor dialog, voice-over, ambient, foley). Now, I am asking for suggestions of mics to look into for said situations. I've heard great things about the Audio Technica 4073a, and the Sennheiser Evolution Wireless series, and those Octava mics you wax poetic about, but from your experience what mics and accessories are necessary to build a well-rounded audio package? Make that the most reasonably priced ($1,500-$2,000) package you can suggest. I apologize for my ignorance, its just so much information to sift through, and I don't want to say I'm a newbie (what a stupid word, anyway) but I just have never had a hard grasp on audio. I'm trying, I'm trying. Thanks man!
 
PaulK said:
Lots of good info. Thanks! I just have one question.

From what I've heard/read, a decent shotgun mic will always outperform a top of the line lav mic. The only exception is when distance is a factor. Obviously if the subject is far away in a long shot, you would need a lav or ADL in post.

From your experience, is there any other situation where the sound quality of a lav beats a shotgun mic?
Click to expand...

Sure, any time you shoot indoors. (unless you're on s soundstage)

Ty Ford
 
"Sure, any time you shoot indoors. (unless you're on s sound stage)"




Ty, that a bull:-)
you can say in very bad acoustic situation room (reverb , extremely high noise )
95 % , the boom is better choice , for the last 5 i use wireless lavs ( sorry i have good enough to stop running cables)
 
I'm not sure what "that a bull" means Oleg, but if it means we disagree, it won't be the first time.

Shotguns suck indoors. Hypers are better. The question was about shotguns, not hypers. As I said before, they suck indoors. The reason they suck is their off-axis funkiness and the fact that they are more omni at middle and low frequencies than a good hyper. Still, if you can't get close enough, a lav wins.

Ty (No Bull) Ford
 
If I've said it once I've said it a million times... okay maybe I've actually posted this about a dozen times... the closest mic always wins. That means regardless of the cost... within reason. Everyone should know that by now.

A Schoeps at 12" will still sound better then an Oktava at 6" etc, etc. I hate saying something that seems like a simple concept, and then somebody runs with it until it sounds stupid... everything with a little common sense please.

I can't speak for Oleg, but hopefully what he meant is that certain shotguns... like a Sanken CS3e or even CS1... (or a 416, in my opinion)... CAN sound better then a lav in many interiors. Of course that's not an absolute... it's just a possibility.

I've used a 416 to good effect in some interiors... even though I normally choose a hyper. If I take the hyper out of the equation, so that I only had the choice of lav or 416... I'd probably still use the 416 half the time... and that would be instead of a Tram or MKE-2 lav.

If I'm not mistaken, the 416 is a favorite mic for VO work for a lot of guys out there... and sure they're in studio (interiors) but I've been in a lot of rooms with really nice acoustics and the 416 sounded great in them... even at 18 inches away. (overhead boom)

So I don't know... maybe that was Oleg's point... that a top end shotgun (he has several) will sound better then almost any lav when the room allows it?
 
i've got the me66 and k6 and have found it nearly impossible to get good audio indoors. outdoors it seems to work great.

what would be a good mic to use indoors? as a match for the me66 k6?
 
thats bull **** - ill take good shot gun , every time over the Neck Ty , sorry pal , the times i record inside the tankers are very little , and frankly the sanken 3e sometimes sounds even better then my 41 - depends on the acoustics of course . Ty sorry but as i statement before -thats completely bull :-)
 
oleg said:
thats bull **** - ill take good shot gun , every time over the Neck Ty , sorry pal , the times i record inside the tankers are very little , and frankly the sanken 3e sometimes sounds even better then my 41 - depends on the acoustics of course . Ty sorry but as i statement before -thats completely bull :-)
Click to expand...

Hey Oleg, your choice of words is abusive. Stop it. You are over the line.

Further, you contradict yourself with your own statement. You rail on against me and then stick in "depending on acoustics"; a point I make regularly when this old acorn question rises.

Ty Ford
 
i dont contradict anything ty- the sound stage is nothing in%%% in the real world , and yes i prefer shotguns in 95 % of situations where i can deal with acoustics ( drama on location ty interiar - i do it all my life:-)), or the light and the lenses give me the ability to work ( sometimes you cant since they so inlove with the 18 mmm),and usuallyin real life its not a sound stage , not that i do it so much with shot guns since have better weapons in my bag ( hyper and cardioid)
the same rull its for doco
your statement about,remind me that in some point here in hollyland we call it" to throw the dick "( dont give a **** ) , if its sounds ok - so it ok , usially it happens after 40 , i am just crossing it so might be next year ill will say hurray Ty.
 
brianluce said:
tye, what is "off axis funkiness"? is that a technical term?

brian
Click to expand...

What Ty meant by "off axis funkiness" is that shotguns don't have the precision of off axis response that a good hyper has.

If you take a look at the polar pattern of a Schoeps it's a smooth and well rounded balloon forward with just a tiny smooth rounded balloon tail. These polar plots are made up of individual drawings of the mic's response for each of many frequencies and they are usually indicitive of the quality of a mic. When you look at the Schoeps and think it's plot is just made up of a line or two that tells you that the mic will have the same manners of pickup regardless of angle (within reason)... so if you wanted to mic two people sitting equal distances from the mic head they'd both still sound natural even though one (or both) of them could be well off-axis.

If you look at any shotgun in comparison you'll see that it's polar plot is nowhere near as "tightly nested" as the Schoeps is. Each of the individual frequency plots will have waves and dips that follow the other lines almost like a child was trying to draw the same shape over and over and just didn't have the skill to keep the lines tight. What that means is that for a given frequency the sound of the mic will accentuate or attenuate that frequency depending on PRECISELY where that mic is pointed.

If the same two people that you mic'ed with the Schoeps were now mic'ed with the shotgun (pretty much ANY shotgun at ANY price) they wouldn't have the identical balance of tone that they previously had... because the odds are that each person wouldn't be perfectly lined up with the invisible peaks and dips of the mics pickup in the same way. Now if the people or the mic are moving then it's even MORE of a variance.

Or think of it another way... if you had a GIANT balloon inflated between two people and just overhead... if they both looked up at it they'd see the same thing... but a shotgun would be more like an upside down boquet of flowers overhead... and as you turn it or change angle it's ever changing by your perspective, even though both of you have the same general perception, it isn't identical.


If you ONLY had a shotgun and it was of the caliber of a Sanken or MKH... and a lav. I think that many times you'd have a tough time deciding which one to use for interiors. Where the issue gets blurry is when a cheaper shotgun doesn't have adequate rear or side rejection... and those guns always sound bad indoors. Many of the better guns are basically hypers anyway (okay SUPER cardioid... narrower front and longer tail... with the exceptions noted above) and if you cut the bass they can sound good in some interiors.

The other thing is that sound is subjective... so perhaps one person puts a priority on absolute handling of room acoustics while another person prefers the sense of presence that a larger diaphragm gives. If you put the argument in a matter of degrees a shotgun which can handle some interiors will sound more solid and real then a lav, but that gun may be just starting to pick up room acoustics while the lav is still sterile of them... but I'd still take the gun for it's solid presence.

I think for some interiors it's a toe-may-toe... toe-mah-toe thing.

That said, the me66 or even 4073a (which I always suggest) don't do interiors well, if at all... so for you guys with those mics don't get confused about the level of shotgun being discussed. I woudn't try interiors with anything (except for Sanken CS1) that was under $1K.
 
oleg's not over the line at all. Please make allowances for english not being his native language.

He's not cursing at you. He deliberately didn't curse, instead saying something like "that is a bull". When someone asked what he meant, he clarified with the full phrase. To a native english speaker it may look like he was being overly aggressive and cursing. But that's not his style, Oleg's been with us for years and we know how he works and how he speaks. Look at the memos in context and you'll see that he was explaining what he meant by "that is a bull" in the earlier memo. Please cut him some slack and understanding.
 
Oleg is always bellow the line - we are working class people ,not actors:-)
and Ty know me well for few years from other places on the planet "net" ,so knows that i keep my languish very respectable:-) now after we killed the bull we can kill few others holy cows :-)
 
Actors (the ones I know) are making less than working class people. Matt explained my points in spades, hearts, clubs and diamonds.

Oleg, if I mistook you, I apologize. I hope you can apply the same attitude to my overgeneralized explanation.

Ty Ford
 
Particular situation

Particular situation

So, I am still a bit confused.

I am thinking of investing in the MKH-416 and I am wondering if this is going to be a versatile mic for both indoors and outside. I have read numerous threads but there is no clear answer.
I shoot both inside and out. Many times we are shooting inside busy restaurant kitchens for a quick interview with the chef. Will the MKH416 work for this situation?

I have $1000 to invest in audio. Is there a better choice, like a combo of mics for interior and exterior shots?

I hope this isn't too much of a NOOB question for this thread. :undecided
 
Don't know allot about kitchens , but usually its loud places with top light , so usually you will not have opportunity to go close enough with shot gun, wireless lavalier is actually will do much better job if you need to sink someone during the work while he throw the sea food in the air with his wok .
if i was you , ill go for some combination , used 416 or 4073 with g-2 , that way you will be able to sink the guy, take atmosphere inside the kitchen ad mix properly in the editing , for sitdown interviews you will be able to make the stuff with shotgun in most of the places , for outside both mikes could be good for different wide angle shots
so 450 for the wireless , 550 for the shot gun and another 200 for better lav ( emw with ph power and brake for wireless) , will do the job , if you stay without better lav you hit the grand bar ,
my 2 shekels
ps - WE DON'T EAT NEW BUYS TWICE A WEEK :-)
 
SushiKing said:
So, I am still a bit confused.

I am thinking of investing in the MKH-416 and I am wondering if this is going to be a versatile mic for both indoors and outside. I have read numerous threads but there is no clear answer.
I shoot both inside and out. Many times we are shooting inside busy restaurant kitchens for a quick interview with the chef. Will the MKH416 work for this situation?

I have $1000 to invest in audio. Is there a better choice, like a combo of mics for interior and exterior shots?

I hope this isn't too much of a NOOB question for this thread. :undecided
Click to expand...

No, but your question is sort of like, "I have $5 and need to cross the bridge." Well the toll bridge costs $6. Can you swim?

Go to my site: http://tinyurl.com/dp2jb

Download the mp4 video and learn why a shotgun, as good as the 416 is, would be a bad choice for a noisy kitchen.

Ty Ford
 
If you want a guarantee of decent audio for interiors and exteriors you should get a hyper and a shotgun. My opinion for the best bang for the buck hyper is the Oktava with hyper cap from sound-room ($165 with the coupon code "DV") and the best bang for the buck shotgun is the 4073a ($549 with a short XLR and worthless shockmount from B&H)... Then you STILL need a good shockmount (K-Tek KSSM with soft bands will support both mics but you'll be stretching the bands a bit for the 4073a... although it WILL work at $109 from Trew)... and you'll need a Softie for that 4073a outside (about $125-$130 from Trew)... and the Oktava absolutely, positively MUST have good wind protection EVEN INDOORS (Rycote BBG is $125 at Trew)... and if you want the option of using that Oktava hyper outdoors in close proximity, because it will work in close proximity but has no reach... (add the Rycote Jammer to the BBG for another $60 from Trew)... Then if you want a decent boom to get those mics close enough... and you DO... you can get an aluminum K-Tek Avalon KE-110CC which includes internal cabling (which is a luxurious joy) and that stick will cost you about $225 (Coffey or Trew)... and that pole will be 6 oz lighter then any other boom in that price range plus it's really nice. Oh, and all of this gear is worthless if you don't monitor the audio your getting... enter Sony 7506 headphones for $99 anywhere.

Okay so I didn't mention a lav there... well as you can see we're ALREADY out of money!

If you want to cover your kitchen shoot in the best possible way a lav system would probably handle the noisy, reverberrent kitchen better then the hyper... and I'd plan to get that lav for a wireless... but you could probably get an XLR version of the lav first (hardwired) and use it wired. I think the Countryman B3 is perhaps the best lav value right now ($180ish at northernsound.net)... and you can tell them that you want to be able to later run it wirelessly so you want a break for a 3.5 mini-jack... for a Sennheiser G2 system that you can purchase later ($520 EW100ENGG2 at northernsound.net)... and your lav system will cover ALL interiors that you can't do with that hyper... and if you need that wireless for an outdoor shoot you can either hide that lav under clothes and risk clothing rub (research techniques for avoiding that in the archives)... OR you can get a MicroCat for the lav ($20 each from B&H... and this is the cheapest place to get what is still a total rip for what you get... but they work).

If somebody reads all of this post and is still confused about an effective sound package then I'm going to have to take a Hiatus from this board... I really DO suggest the same stuff over and over. There's your shopping list. I could add alternative choices on everything as a matter of preferrence (at higher cost)... or additional mics that I like for improving certain odd situations... but really that's the cake and you can eat all you like... the rest is icing.:thumbsup:
 
Um, Gee Matt, I don't have that much money. Can you suggest something less expansive that would be as good or better?

Thanks,

Ty
 
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