EVA-1 Super16 window mode?

[Harry Lime]

All true, but it would be nice if Panasonic offered s16 support without us having to resort to tricks and a Rube Goldberg solution to make it work...

What makes a s16 mode on the EVA so attractive is that the 5.7k sensor will give you a very nice 2.8k window image. That's a lot higher than HD from something like an F5/F55.

I think the Ursa Pro has a s16 window mode from it's 5.7k sensor, but frankly I really don't want to go down the BM road.

 

[Denny16]

The Ursa Mini 4.6 has both a HD and 2K window, both of which work with S16. The 2K window is closer to a S16 gate size.
Cheers

 

[Mitch Gross]

In theory it sounds possible, but I would have to ask the engineers if there's room in the processor for this mode. We've really stuffed the camera with features already.

The question they will ask on any such feature is how many people will use it? (Actually the real question is "How many more cameras will this sell?") Because that's what you have to do when you allocate resources to any given project. These guys also work on all our other products.

I don't know how many people would actually use this functionality. The vast, vast number of people we speak to wanted a S-35 sensor camera in a small lightweight body. They didn't particularly want a Super-16 camera. There's a whole bunch of 2/3" cameras out there for that.

Same goes for anamorphic mode. How many people will really want it? Will this sell cameras? Only a small percentage of the people who ever buy an EVA1 will use anything other than an EF mount lens on it. How many will push that to a S-16 lens or an anamorphic?

I'm not trying to poo-poo any ideas here and I will pass this along (actually, I'm way ahead of y'all on this and lots of other requests). I'm just trying to explain the realities for any manufacturer in making such decisions. Just because you can doesn't mean that you should. Also, I can't claim we can as I'd have to ask the engineers. Just sayin'.

 

[Run&Gun]

In theory it sounds possible, but I would have to ask the engineers if there's room in the processor for this mode. We've really stuffed the camera with features already.

The question they will ask on any such feature is how many people will use it? (Actually the real question is "How many more cameras will this sell?") Because that's what you have to do when you allocate resources to any given project. These guys also work on all our other products.

I don't know how many people would actually use this functionality. The vast, vast number of people we speak to wanted a S-35 sensor camera in a small lightweight body. They didn't particularly want a Super-16 camera. There's a whole bunch of 2/3" cameras out there for that.

Same goes for anamorphic mode. How many people will really want it? Will this sell cameras? Only a small percentage of the people who ever buy an EVA1 will use anything other than an EF mount lens on it. How many will push that to a S-16 lens or an anamorphic?

I'm not trying to poo-poo any ideas here and I will pass this along (actually, I'm way ahead of y'all on this and lots of other requests). I'm just trying to explain the realities for any manufacturer in making such decisions. Just because you can doesn't mean that you should. Also, I can't claim we can as I'd have to ask the engineers. Just sayin'.

Definetly not super-scientific, but you could get a rough idea by looking at all of the people that use the "s16" crop mode on the F5 and 55. Now granted, in reality most users are NOT using it to put s16 glass on there, they're using it for a "digital extender" and some for B4 lenses with adapters, but going by all the requests you constantly saw on various forums for it to be made into a one-button function, I'd say a lot of people want that functionality.

 

[Marcel Zyskind]

You would at least sell one more camera! That's for sure Already have the PL mount but waiting to buy the camera... I'd be happy to sacrifice all the interlaced codecs for s16mm & anamorphic if that frees up processor power? How many people use interlaced these days?

 

[Seanik]

BBC still wants 50i when submitting rushes (their upload/ingest system is fine with 25p edited pieces, though). I recently had to do a ton of transcoding (50p to 50i) on a couple of projects that they edited back in London. That's the current workflow if you want to avoid 8bit AVCHD, unfortunately.

Broadcasters are always lowest common denominator. I'm just happy that I don't have to shoot HD for 4:3 aspect anymore!

 

[Mitch Gross]

You would at least sell one more camera! That's for sure Already have the PL mount but waiting to buy the camera... I'd be happy to sacrifice all the interlaced codecs for s16mm & anamorphic if that frees up processor power? How many people use interlaced these days?

Adding high quality interlaced recording likely adds several hundred cameras almost immediately just here in the US. And I'm sure plenty more in the EU and then there's China, Japan, and lots of other territories. And then lots more over time. So yeah, kinda overwhelms your one S-16 vote if it came down to that (which I doubt).

 

[Mitch Gross]

BBC still wants 50i when submitting rushes (their upload/ingest system is fine with 25p edited pieces, though). I recently had to do a ton of transcoding (50p to 50i) on a couple of projects that they edited back in London. That's the current workflow if you want to avoid 8bit AVCHD, unfortunately.

Broadcasters are always lowest common denominator. I'm just happy that I don't have to shoot HD for 4:3 aspect anymore!

Your salvation is only days away.

 

[Marcel Zyskind]

BBC still wants 50i when submitting rushes (their upload/ingest system is fine with 25p edited pieces, though). I recently had to do a ton of transcoding (50p to 50i) on a couple of projects that they edited back in London. That's the current workflow if you want to avoid 8bit AVCHD, unfortunately.

Broadcasters are always lowest common denominator. I'm just happy that I don't have to shoot HD for 4:3 aspect anymore!

4:3 will have a resurgence once anamorphic wears off. Wait and see

 

[Marcel Zyskind]

Adding high quality interlaced recording likely adds several hundred cameras almost immediately just here in the US. And I'm sure plenty more in the EU and then there's China, Japan, and lots of other territories. And then lots more over time. So yeah, kinda overwhelms your one S-16 vote if it came down to that (which I doubt).

You are right. It comes down to lot of parameters for me. No dedicated viewfinder and choice of mount (which has been addressed by Wooden Camera) being some of them. The image quality and codecs are fantastic.

I see the EVA-1 as a camera that I can add to a bigger package where it can complement the main cameras (see anamorphic request in earlier posts). All that said I would love to use it for smaller projects where I'm on my own (see s16mm request). It's ideal for shooting tests during prep for a film and great for grabbing landscape/cityscape shots before the main shoot or if I need to send out a break out team to get said shots. I really want one ;-)

 

[Harry Lime]

In theory it sounds possible, but I would have to ask the engineers if there's room in the processor for this mode. We've really stuffed the camera with features already.

The question they will ask on any such feature is how many people will use it? (Actually the real question is "How many more cameras will this sell?") Because that's what you have to do when you allocate resources to any given project. These guys also work on all our other products.

Hey Mitch

Thanks for chiming in on this.

I totally understand that it has to make financial sense and 'move bodies' for Panasonic to allocate money and resources (if it is even technically possible)

I don't know how many people would actually use this functionality. The vast, vast number of people we speak to wanted a S-35 sensor camera in a small lightweight body. They didn't particularly want a Super-16 camera.

I agree that s35 constitutes the most popular format. But the interesting thing about a s16 mode on the EVA would be that due to it's 5.7k sensor you would end up with an image around 2.5-2.8k. That's a lot higher than the usual HD resolution (1920x1080) image you get from s16 mode on other cameras like the Alexa Mini, F5/F55 etc. 2.8k is the equivalent of a 1:6 Alexa. It's more than 2k DCI for indies. Potentially in RAW.

In my experience everyone gets all excited about high resolutions until they collide with the reality of managing that much data. 5.7k RAW is not for the faint of heart. Even 4k RAW is a lot of data if you are shooting anything of length. I have an Alexa EV and 2.8k RAW is a lot of data, but it's manageable if you require the latitude. 2.8k RAW out of an EVA would be really tempting for productions that want to shoot RAW, but can't handle the massive amount of data requirements of shooting 4k/5.7k RAW. Think independents who would shoot s16 instead of s35. (RAW vs Prores)

There is a lot of s16 glass sitting idle out there. I have a set of Zeiss Super Speeds mk III patiently sitting in a case waiting to be called upon. WC has solved the hardware side with their PL mount.

There's a whole bunch of 2/3" cameras out there for that.

Yeah, but they are mostly ENG etc. Not cinema type cameras....

Same goes for anamorphic mode. How many people will really want it? Will this sell cameras? Only a small percentage of the people who ever buy an EVA1 will use anything other than an EF mount lens on it. How many will push that to a S-16 lens or an anamorphic?

I think a lot of people want anamorphic, until they actually have to shoot anamorphic. It's a grown up format. The glass is rare, temperamental, very expensive and you need a lot of light. Anyone actually shooting an anamorphic show is probably not shooting on an EVA1 but a full-size camera and has a budget.

I'm not trying to poo-poo any ideas here and I will pass this along (actually, I'm way ahead of y'all on this and lots of other requests). I'm just trying to explain the realities for any manufacturer in making such decisions. Just because you can doesn't mean that you should. Also, I can't claim we can as I'd have to ask the engineers. Just sayin'.

Totally cool, Mitch and thanks for listening and passing ideas along. There aren't a lot of camera companies that are willing to do that.


all the best

Feli di Giorgio
www.felidigiorgio.com

 

[Run&Gun]

Yeah, but they are mostly ENG etc. Not cinema type cameras....

Well, if your definition of "cinema camera" is s35 sensor, yeah. But otherwise we were all shooting a lot of 24P cine-type stuff on 2/3" VariCam's, F900's, etc., before the s35 cams hit the market. And after. And still. Even though I own a C300, F55, Canon 17-120 and a full set of CN-E primes, I will still shoot some 24P and slow-mo content on my P2 VariCam for features, because it's a better camera in certain situations, especially to run & gun with and because of it's design and available glass.

 

[Harry Lime]

Well, if your definition of "cinema camera" is s35 sensor, yeah. But otherwise we were all shooting a lot of 24P cine-type stuff on 2/3" VariCam's, F900's, etc., before the s35 cams hit the market. And after. And still. Even though I own a C300, F55, Canon 17-120 and a full set of CN-E primes, I will still shoot some 24P and slow-mo content on my P2 VariCam for features, because it's a better camera in certain situations, especially to run & gun with and because of it's design and available glass.

ENG cameras don't shoot RAW and are usually limited to HD resolutions. The colors science is very different and so is the sensor performance.

Cinema and ENG cameras are two different beasts bred for different kind of jobs.

 

[OnSet]

Before buying an EVA1, I probably would have thought that Super 16 mode would have been a great feature to add. I've had good results in the past shooting in S16 mode the Amira as well as B4 adapted mode with the F55.
However, many of my expectations have changed since buying an EVA1 and introducing it to my clients. Basically, their virtually unanimous response to the camera has been "Let's keep it in 4k." In fact, out of the first dozen client shooting days with it, 11 of the 12 were 4k.
So with my clients looking at the camera as a 4K sourrce, and transitioning into wanting 4k acquisition as well, I think it would be a difficult sell to use the camera for anything in HD.

 

[Harry Lime]

Before buying an EVA1, I probably would have thought that Super 16 mode would have been a great feature to add. I've had good results in the past shooting in S16 mode the Amira as well as B4 adapted mode with the F55.
However, many of my expectations have changed since buying an EVA1 and introducing it to my clients. Basically, their virtually unanimous response to the camera has been "Let's keep it in 4k." In fact, out of the first dozen client shooting days with it, 11 of the 12 were 4k.
So with my clients looking at the camera as a 4K sourrce, and transitioning into wanting 4k acquisition as well, I think it would be a difficult sell to use the camera for anything in HD.

Due to the 5.7k sensor the s16 mode in the EVA would more like 2.5-2.8k instead of HD.

 

[OnSet]

Due to the 5.7k sensor the s16 mode in the EVA would more like 2.5-2.8k instead of HD.

My point wasn't about the resolution, or about the fact that I think the Super16 area on the sensor would make a very nice image - particularly oversampling the way my F3 does. I was trying to say that I was surprised by the extent to which my clients, once given a taste of 4k, have been requesting it specifically.

From my perspective, super 16 crop mode would have made a nice selling feature for the camera when I was shopping around, but now that I own the camera I'm not sure I'd actually utilize the capability. Obviously I bought the camera for the features it already had, and I'm happy with my choice.

On the other hand, now that I've been using the camera I do think that a continuous auto-focus option would be a great addition. It's a function I pretty much never used with previous cameras, but the EVA1 is so small and light it just makes sense to put it on a gimbal rig where continuous autofocus would be an asset.

 

[Run&Gun]

ENG cameras don't shoot RAW and are usually limited to HD resolutions. The colors science is very different and so is the sensor performance.

Cinema and ENG cameras are two different beasts bred for different kind of jobs.

I have an F55, which is a cinema camera and the vast majority of the shooting I do with it is in HD, XAVC and with a burned-in look. I've shot RAW with it exactly twice. And of course there are cinema cameras that do not shoot RAW or higher than HD resolution, anyway.

My point was going hand-in-hand with what Mitch suggested about shooting with a 2/3" ENG camera instead of a cinema camera at "s16". s16 and 2/3" are in the ballpark sensor size wise. I know there are differences, but I'm thinking if you're gonna "step down" from s35 to s16, since lets be completely honest, one of the big reasons a lot of people shoot s35 is for the really shallow DoF they can get from it, then why not shoot with a good ENG camera like a VariCam, which undeniably has damn good color(science). VariCam's have been my primary ENG cameras since I bought my first one in 2006, but they were originally designed to be "cinema cameras". But it was great having ONE camera that served as a "feature camera" able to do 24P and an ENG camera, all in one, with just a single menu adjustment.

I'm not trying to say that a 2/3" VariCam is the same as a modern s35 cinema camera, but owning a cinema camera that can switch between s35 and s16 sensor size, from a practical shooting/operating stand-point, I would rather shoot with my Vari over my F55 with s16 glass. And while we are being completely honest, from a solely operating(off-the-shoulder/Run&Gun) perspective, I'd rather shoot with my VariCam over my F55/17-120, too.

 

[Denny16]

If yiu are looking for a S16 ENG type camera, the the new Blackmagic Ursa Broadcast might be another option, it has a full,size S16sensor, not the smaller 2/3rds sensor, which works,better with S16 PL lenses than trying to use them in a 2/3ds B4 Camera.
The Broadcast Camera p, while,it comes with a B4 mount, can take the Ursa Mini Pro PL mound as use the S16 PL lenses quite easily.
Cheers

 

[Harry Lime]

I have an F55, which is a cinema camera and the vast majority of the shooting I do with it is in HD, XAVC and with a burned-in look. I've shot RAW with it exactly twice. And of course there are cinema cameras that do not shoot RAW or higher than HD resolution, anyway.

I have an Alexa and routinely shoot RAW, but it is a large heavy camera that eats batteries like crazy. I would like something that shoots RAW below 4k and weighs less, is more power efficient and low key.

And of course there are cinema cameras that do not shoot RAW or higher than HD resolution, anyway.

The F35, DALSA, Viper etc have been out of production for years...

My point was going hand-in-hand with what Mitch suggested about shooting with a 2/3" ENG camera instead of a cinema camera at "s16". s16 and 2/3" are in the ballpark sensor size wise. I know there are differences, but I'm thinking if you're gonna "step down" from s35 to s16, since lets be completely honest, one of the big reasons a lot of people shoot s35 is for the really shallow DoF they can get from it, then why not shoot with a good ENG camera like a VariCam, which undeniably has damn good color(science). VariCam's have been my primary ENG cameras since I bought my first one in 2006, but they were originally designed to be "cinema cameras". But it was great having ONE camera that served as a "feature camera" able to do 24P and an ENG camera, all in one, with just a single menu adjustment.

I'm not trying to say that a 2/3" VariCam is the same as a modern s35 cinema camera, but owning a cinema camera that can switch between s35 and s16 sensor size, from a practical shooting/operating stand-point, I would rather shoot with my Vari over my F55 with s16 glass. And while we are being completely honest, from a solely operating(off-the-shoulder/Run&Gun) perspective, I'd rather shoot with my VariCam over my F55/17-120, too.

I hear you, but I really don't want a 2/3 ENG camera. I would like a s35/s16 cine camera that shoots RAW. Just like you I've been doing this since before digital was even around, so I know the difference between the two types of cameras.

As far as DOF goes I can easily match s35 2.8/4 with s16 glass, by opening up about a 1-1.5 stops. My Super Speed mk III open up to T1.3 so I can get shallow DOF if needed, although I don't feel the need for my footage to look like it was shot on a 5D at f1.4. But aside from that there is a certain esthetic to s16 that is different from s35 and very attractive to some people.

I also happen to own s35 glass so it would be great to be able to shoot s16/s35 on the same camera, depending on the project needs and budget.

Again, due to the 5.7k sensor in the EVA the s16 mode would offer a RAW image that exceeds 2k DCI by a generous margin (~2.8k). Not everyone has the disk space to shoot a small feature 4k RAW. But 2.8k RAW makes it a lot more possible.

It would be a compact, power efficient camera with 14 stops, excellent color, and a PL mount that happens to shoot both s35 and s16 at a production worthy resolution (in excess of 2k DCI). It would be like having an Éclair CM3 except this one would actually work reliably.



PS: Yes, the BM Ursa Pro shoots s16, but I don't like their color science, don't need a magenta vignette, FPN, nor do I trust them in terms of reliability.

 

[combatentropy]

For what it's worth, the Panasonic GH5 has a crop mode, called Extra Tele Conversion, that sounds like it would be almost exactly Super 16.

MATH: If you make sure to set the resolution to UHD, then this mode crops it 1.4 times. A 4/3 sensor (17.3 x 13mm) in 16:9 mode (17.3 x 9.73 mm) is about 1.4 times as big in each dimension as S16 (12.52 x 7.41 mm).

FURTHER MATH: There is a funny line-up of resolution and sensor sizes. These all have about the same pixel size:

S16: 2.8K, just so happens to be about the perfect resolution for moire-free 2K. Plus you can say, "My camera has the same resolution as the Alexa."
4/3: 4K, for those that have to shoot for Netflix, even though 4K raw doesn't quite demosaic to 4K RGB
S35: 6K, for those who think there's something magical about perfect 4K RGB
135: 8K, for crazy people

So, I don't know what this means. But theoretically, a manufacturer could:

(a) make an 8K 135 camera that would please everybody, given the right crop modes, or
(b) make four sensors at all these different sizes and resolutions, maybe saving money because they have the same pixel pitch and so could maybe share some manufacturing steps

FURTHER THOUGHTS

Or a more moderate pixel density:

S16: 2K
4/3: 2.8K
S35: 4K
135: 6K