Epic and Scarlet release in 2010

[Emanuel]

The professional direction was an afterthought (...) The camera is not the problem. It's the attitude of the company against those who cannot afford their cameras. I will be the first to say that dSLRs offer substandard imaging, but I understand what they offer and how useful they are, and I understand the limitations of a production. The fact that some people cannot afford to be your customers does not give you the right to offend them. (...) These people are creative individuals and they want to express themselves through cinema. They are artists. The last thing these people wanted to hear is someone judging them based on their buying power. If they are into cinema, they might have been broke in the past, and they might be broke in the future. And they might need your support at that very moment.

All I'm saying is that creating tools for art, is a very unique thing, it's not like any other business. You are not a manufacturer or a merchant, you are part of the process. It requires a certain sensitivity and James Jannard has gloriously demonstrated that he lacks that sensitivity. This alienated people who cannot afford the new direction of Red cameras, but it also alienated some of those who supported Red in their first years by buying Red One and spreading the use of the Red product. You can't mend that with a resolution chart shot.

Otis,

I understand very well what you want to say. But should anyone hope for anything different?

Did you ever take notice of previous Jim Jannard's work @ Oakley's commercials? What do you think? Can he be a good appreciator of Angelopoulos? Or a Hal Hartley for example?

Jon Jost, who I had the privilege to share the same house I rented in Rome after him, said once something that reminds me now. Something like, «some guys are only indies until the day anyone waves to them with a check from Hollywood in the other hand».

Well, I have no clue about who was referring to (actually it was about Gus Van Sant) but... got me?

Fortunately, there are more than one or two true indies renting the same house in Rome. And they don't necessarily respond in the same Jon Jost name, despite the coincidences. With the due respect, that's the difference between a Steven Soderbergh (or Gus Van Sant) and a Jon Jost, as for instance.

Greetings from Rome... not from former Jon Jost's roman house anymore; I've got a newer one even less expensive, same neighbourhood, not far away from where Sergio Leone lived and (literally) wrote (before to direct) a few masterpieces in this same business after all ;-)

Emanuel

 

[bwhitz]

As much as I am against Red's arrogance and attitude to those "unworthy", you have to admit that they are pushing the limits of technology right now. I didn't want to believe it myself, but after seeing what Sony came up with for $20k I have no choice but to restore my faith in Red. The thing I am stating to love about Red is that they arn't trying to B.S. us with complying with "industry standard" codecs and workflows. They shoot Redcode RAW... do what you want with it. None of that "this has XDCAM S-LOG... so it's umm... $15k extra... cause it's pro." In 2010, if you can get a camera that shoots 5k RAW up to 120 fps in a tiny package for around $30k, then why are other manufactures still trying to sell us on their low-tech, but "industry standard" gear for the same price. All they really have to offer is these phrases like "industry standard" and "professional" which seem to do a great job in tricking even the most astute film-makers. All "pro" features (and lying to yourself aside)... this $20k Sony isn't going to make that much better looking images than an $800 Rebel from Best Buy.

Even with all of Red's delays and this whole DSLR revolution, all the big manufacturers are offering us is 1080p with broadcast compliant codecs? I thought the era of "industry standard" and "broadcast compliant" are over. Computers are quick as hell now and turn-around transcoding times have never been faster... please quit with all of these "compliant" codecs and just give us the raw data from the sensor. Let us decide what to do with it.

 

[Emanuel]

I thought the era of "industry standard" and "broadcast compliant" are over. Computers are quick as hell now and turn-around transcoding times have never been faster... please quit with all of these "compliant" codecs and just give us the raw data from the sensor. Let us decide what to do with it.

LOL They won't listen you. But yes, you are right. In a way round or another, RED is listening the market. Jim Jannard and Jarred are bright entrepreneurs well seconded for skilled people like Ted, Graeme, Stuart, Jon and so on.

And you're right twice when you infer there's no such much 'broadcast compliant' codecs in the digital era we live, where a personal computer can be a powerful professional tool.

Should 'professional' meaning be reviewed anyhow? ;-)

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51092

 

[Tzedekh]

. . . a shoot out of the box kit for the fixed originally priced at $4750 is now estimated at $5750 with the added processing power to handle the HDRx mode.

Actually, the original price for the modular fixed Scarlet kit was $3,750.

But it can be looked at from another perspective. Modularity was implemented to allow users to upgrade as needed. But in moving from a nonmodular approach, the basic Scarlet lost some stuff -- HD-SDI output, a larger (4.8") LCD, and a second CF slot -- that now can only be reinstated by buying additional modules. Using the old module prices (they have been removed from the Red site), to get HD-SDI, you need to buy the $2,750 Pro I/O module. The 5" LCD (closer to 4.8" than the 2.8" module) costs (or did) $1,650, and the dual CF reader, $950. Assuming they give a $1,450 credit for the kit's 2.8" LCD and single-slot CF module, that still comes out to an extra $2,450 to add the functionality removed from the modular fixed. So, in a way, what was $3K in 2008 is now $8,200. Sure, that $8,200 configuration is, beyond simple feature restoration, a lot more camera than the $3K one and more than many of those who liked the original design might want (or be able to afford). In that sense, rather than having the camera they wanted, modularity has worked against them, resulting in a camera that's either less than they wanted or more than they can afford.

 

[Razz16mm]

Actually, the original price for the modular fixed Scarlet kit was $3,750.

But it can be looked at from another perspective. Modularity was implemented to allow users to upgrade as needed. But in moving from a nonmodular approach, the basic Scarlet lost some stuff -- HD-SDI output, a larger (4.8") LCD, and a second CF slot -- that now can only be reinstated by buying additional modules. Using the old module prices (they have been removed from the Red site), to get HD-SDI, you need to buy the $2,750 Pro I/O module. The 5" LCD (closer to 4.8" than the 2.8" module) costs (or did) $1,650, and the dual CF reader, $950. Assuming they give a $1,450 credit for the kit's 2.8" LCD and single-slot CF module, that still comes out to an extra $2,450 to add the functionality removed from the modular fixed. So, in a way, what was $3K in 2008 is now $8,200. Sure, that $8,200 configuration is, beyond simple feature restoration, a lot more camera than the $3K one and more than many of those who liked the original design might want (or be able to afford). In that sense, rather than having the camera they wanted, modularity has worked against them, resulting in a camera that's either less than they wanted or more than they can afford.

The initial concept Scarlet never existed and was never developed. Why? Because the feed back requests from the Reduser and Scarlet user forums for all the features and capabilities people wanted to see on the camera couldn't be incorporated into the original concept. It WASN'T the camera people wanted.
People wanted pro I/O, there wasn't room for it. People wanted interchangeable lenses, not provided for. People wanted a 35mm version, now there is one. People wanted an EVF, the original mockup only had the LCD. That doesn't even begin to get into requests like GPS Geotagging, inertial sensors for motion tracking and in camera image stabilization, digital audio I/O, wireless remote control, interchangeable lens mounts, etc. The fact is that Scarlet is becoming the camera that many of us really want. It just can't be built for $3k. Look at the existing camera market and see what is there for $3k, or even $6k or $10k for that matter.

 

[Tzedekh]

The initial concept Scarlet never existed and was never developed. Why? Because the feed back requests from the Reduser and Scarlet user forums for all the features and capabilities people wanted to see on the camera couldn't be incorporated into the original concept. It WASN'T the camera people wanted.

It wasn't the camera the most vocal wanted. Who knows what everyone else wanted? I don't, and neither does Jim Jannard. And if you think he based his decisions on the RedUser and Scarlet User forums, you're mistaken. He saw market forces and realized he had to further differentiate his camera. Even though Red originally wanted the prosumer market, that hope faded. Red didn't want to be constrained by price points any more than schedules.

People wanted pro I/O, there wasn't room for it.

Not sure why HD-SDI was removed from the base module if it was slated for the original.

People wanted interchangeable lenses, not provided for.

OK, but why keep the fixed version then?

People wanted a 35mm version, now there is one.

There already was one. It was called Red One. And then another, called Epic, also announced at NAB 2008.

People wanted an EVF, the original mockup only had the LCD.

True, but the Bomb EVF is hardly a prosumer item. If anything, people most likely wanted something like the sub-$1K RedRock microEVF, which uses standard HDMI (and has an HDMI pass-through).

That doesn't even begin to get into requests like GPS Geotagging, inertial sensors for motion tracking and in camera image stabilization, digital audio I/O, wireless remote control, interchangeable lens mounts, etc. The fact is that Scarlet is becoming the camera that many of us really want. It just can't be built for $3k. Look at the existing camera market and see what is there for $3k, or even $6k or $10k for that matter.

Other than the interchangeable lens mount, none of these features was ever mentioned as being included or excluded from the original design. My feeling is most of them would've ended up in Scarlet (even if it had remained nonmodular), had the economy not tanked. Red could probably have produced the $3K camera, but the profit margin would've been too slim, and when the already questionable "mass" market for it undoubtedly began to dry up in 2008, it probably wasn't worth pursuing anymore.

 

[acoelho1]

The professional direction was an afterthought, a very recent change to the plan. Even though the initial product was moderately priced (Red One), starting with 3K for 3K, the marketing was directed to the low end. Red tried to hit the soccer moms.

The consumer did not knock on Red's door and ask for an affordable digital cinema camera. Red knocked the consumer's door, promised the impossible and did not deliver.

The problem people have is not this broken promise though. The camera is not the problem. It's the attitude of the company against those who cannot afford their cameras. I will be the first to say that dSLRs offer substandard imaging, but I understand what they offer and how useful they are, and I understand the limitations of a production. The fact that some people cannot afford to be your customers does not give you the right to offend them. Many people are stretching far enough to afford the 5,000 euro tools, not everyone is a working professional, and even professionals would use something more affordable if it did the job.

Leaving well paid commercials, music videos and event photography aside, many people were interested in Red for low budget cinematography. And what is cinematography at this level? Entire features shot with ultra low budgets. Projects that start with only a part of the budget in hand and hope to pull though. Filmmaking is a great way to waste money and a low budget feature is a great sacrifice to many filmmakers. These people are creative individuals and they want to express themselves through cinema. They are artists. The last thing these people wanted to hear is someone judging them based on their buying power. If they are into cinema, they might have been broke in the past, and they might be broke in the future. And they might need your support at that very moment.

All I'm saying is that creating tools for art, is a very unique thing, it's not like any other business. You are not a manufacturer or a merchant, you are part of the process. It requires a certain sensitivity and James Jannard has gloriously demonstrated that he lacks that sensitivity. This alienated people who cannot afford the new direction of Red cameras, but it also alienated some of those who supported Red in their first years by buying Red One and spreading the use of the Red product. You can't mend that with a resolution chart shot.

If you don't like Red's approach, you have the choice of not buying their product. My only gripe with Red is them denigrating the HDDSLR as an inadequate tool but I give them credit for pushing the technology forward, which has forced the hand of all the major camera makers, which means we win as consumers. If it wasn't for Red, we wouldn't see an Alexa or the new Sony S35 camera at this moment in time.

I'm not sure about the alienated part either since the most important thing to a filmmaker is telling a compelling story and not what a camera maker has or has not promised. If Red delivers on Red Scarlet with the known specs, do you really think anyone would give a **** about the past marketing hype. What people want is a camera that can deliver that film like quality and if that means paying 3k or 10k, it will still be a revolutionary camera system in my opinion.

Just think about what you would be shooting with if you had a good script before Red came along.

 

[Michael Olsen]

It wasn't the camera the most vocal wanted. Who knows what everyone else wanted?

Well, REDUSER and SCARLETUSER are public forums. Anyone who wanted to weigh in on the situation should have. If they didn't, I don't know who they should blame.

And if you think he based his decisions on the RedUser and Scarlet User forums, you're mistaken. He saw market forces and realized he had to further differentiate his camera.

Personally, I feel like that is a lot of speculation about what another individual was/is thinking.

RED has a history of taking their cues from what is requested on their forums. And frankly, many people on their forums want things that are different from what the market offers. They want 5K. They want 120fps. They want 18 stops of DR. They want mathematically lossless REDCODE. I think Occam's Razor pretty much demands that I follow the simplest logic - RED announced a product. They subsequently received a great many requests for additional features and/or specifications via a public forum. They decided to honor those requests, resulting in the evolution of a different product.

Red didn't want to be constrained by price points any more than schedules.

I feel like that is - to an extent - the case. RED wants to make the very best images it can. And honestly, it makes sense to start at the top with that goal. Make Epic first. Then Scarlet. After that, who knows. The roadmap has faded from public scrutiny at this point. Maybe RED will decide to come out with a very stripped down Scarlet called the Pink that'll shoot 3K at 30fps for the same price as the 2/3".

OK, but why keep the fixed version then?

Simple. People want it. Read this thread. It's rather recent and shows just what people think of the Fixed. To many, the lens alone is worth the price of the camera.

True, but the Bomb EVF is hardly a prosumer item. If anything, people most likely wanted something like the sub-$1K RedRock microEVF, which uses standard HDMI (and has an HDMI pass-through).

True - it's definitely not prosumer. But virtually all of the feedback they have gotten about their current EVF has been to make it even more professional - make it smaller, lighter, keep the 720p resolution, keep the camera interface buttons, and add heaters to ensure the camera operates in virtually every conceivable temperature. They did all of those things. And (unless I'm mistaken) they kept the price the same or lowered it.

When they start getting mass requests for a Bomb "Lite", they may just make one.

 

[youngindiefilms]

Oh so true.. I don't get when people always get riled up about gear. If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to buy it. What's the big deal??
Only thing I can say is I got to use the Epic recently, even if it was only a quick try, I'm very impressed how small it is. I will be renting this for sure when it is out!

 

[yoclay]

Well, REDUSER and SCARLETUSER are public forums. Anyone who wanted to weigh in on the situation should have. If they didn't, I don't know who they should blame.

Sorry, but the arbitrary way in which any real discussion of DSLR's was thrown off of that site, does not exactly represent freedom of expression. I have seen time and time again, any perceived criticism of RED which includes talk of DSLR viewed as trolling. This feels defensive, partisan and clearly related to marketing interests. The RED forum feels like an extension of a sales team, more or less a fanclub, and not an open place of communication. Rarely have I seen so much hostility to dissenting point of views. And, yes I am aware that the RED forums are an offshoot of DVXuser, and no, I am not one of the people who was "trolling" their site.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Sorry, but the arbitrary way in which any real discussion of DSLR's was thrown off of that site, does not exactly represent freedom of expression. I have seen time and time again, any perceived criticism of RED which includes talk of DSLR viewed as trolling. This feels defensive, partisan and clearly related to marketing interests. The RED forum feels like an extension of a sales team, more or less a fanclub, and not an open place of communication. Rarely have I seen so much hostility to dissenting point of views. And, yes I am aware that the RED forums are an offshoot of DVXuser, and no, I am not one of the people who was "trolling" their site.

Honestly, I agree with you - to an extent. I think the DSLR discussion should have been allowed. I think it should have been moderated to prevent personal attacks and the like, but I don't feel the discussion itself should have been so heavily scrubbed from existence. Recently, DSLRs have been mentioned on the site a few times without issue - it seems the intense criticism and/or emotion about the cameras has pretty much settled down. People know what RED is expecting to deliver over the next few months. And people know what the DSLRs are delivering now and for the foreseeable future. Fortunately, discussion of the Sony F3, Arri Alexa, VG-10, and the Panasonic AF-100 have been allowed - without issue. Naturally, many comments have been negative. I think reasoned discussion of other cameras in relation to RED is welcome.

That being said, the discussion of DSLRs doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that people had quite a chance to speak up about the original Scarlet. Many many people spoke up about how they would like to see additional features added. Relatively speaking, very few said that it was perfect the way it was and that they shouldn't consider improving it. And I don't know why anyone would fear persecution for saying a RED product was more than acceptable as is and that they would rather have the design remain the same.

 

[David Jimerson]

OK, folks. This isn't the place to discuss what happens on REDUSER or SCARLETUSER. Or any other message board, for that matter.

 

[Centro]

Uhm, they're trying to give you a lot more for a considerable less amount of $$$. That's quite indie friendly to me. In the end it's all about the result (the camera) anyway, i don't particular care for who's behind it, their marketing etc...

 

[Tzedekh]

Well, REDUSER and SCARLETUSER are public forums. Anyone who wanted to weigh in on the situation should have. If they didn't, I don't know who they should blame.

Jim didn't ask the forum to vote on a redesign, as he did with adding HDRx. No one knew that Red was going to kill the original design. If Jim decided to revamp Scarlet based solely on what was a vocal minority regarding the fixed lens, he simply would've gotten rid of it.

Personally, I feel like that is a lot of speculation about what another individual was/is thinking.

Which you're adding to.

RED has a history of taking their cues from what is requested on their forums.

Cues, maybe. My point was that Jim didn't make final decisions based solely on forum responses. He undoubtedly considered them, but other factors were undoubtedly more important.

And frankly, many people on their forums want things that are different from what the market offers. They want 5K. They want 120fps. They want 18 stops of DR.

True, but Red came up with these before the forums ever started. There were no forums to ask Red to produce Red One, Epic, or Scarlet (Scarlet was only hinted at and Epic never mentioned before NAB 2008). And his decision to include HDRx on Scarlet and raise the price was not decided by the forums. He said that potential for HDR in some form had been designed into the chips, so it wasn't an after thought. The survey on RedUser was fairly evenly split -- the pro-HDRx side had only a slight statistically significant advantage, so it was hardly a mandate. I think Jim had already decided to include it (in keeping with the new pro-only, price-not-so-important stance) and was looking to the survey not for overwhelming support, but for overwhelming opposition. It was only a few days later that he announced his decision.

I think Occam's Razor pretty much demands that I follow the simplest logic - RED announced a product. They subsequently received a great many requests for additional features and/or specifications via a public forum. They decided to honor those requests, resulting in the evolution of a different product.

You're confusing association and causation. I'm not saying Jim Jannard didn't listen, just that the forums didn't decide things for him. What was requested for Scarlet could've probably been incorporated in the nonmodular design, and we don't know how much was already slated for it. The redesign was a surprise and likely arose from a host of factors.

I feel like that is - to an extent - the case. RED wants to make the very best images it can. And honestly, it makes sense to start at the top with that goal. Make Epic first. Then Scarlet. After that, who knows. The roadmap has faded from public scrutiny at this point. Maybe RED will decide to come out with a very stripped down Scarlet called the Pink that'll shoot 3K at 30fps for the same price as the 2/3".

That wasn't really my point. The original Scarlet, aside from lens interchangeability and modularity (which is of arguable value at that price point), might have been just about as good as the current design -- I don't know, you don't know, and maybe even Jim doesn't know. What I'm fairly certain of is that the price point was already on the cusp of iffiness when it was announced and became less tenable subsequently. I believe that both the unit margins and the anticipated volumes were shrinking, so it no longer made economic sense for Red. But that doesn't mean the design was inferior, just that Red couldn't (or wouldn't) produce it.

True - it's definitely not prosumer. But virtually all of the feedback they have gotten about their current EVF has been to make it even more professional - make it smaller, lighter, keep the 720p resolution, keep the camera interface buttons, and add heaters to ensure the camera operates in virtually every conceivable temperature. They did all of those things. And (unless I'm mistaken) they kept the price the same or lowered it.

When they start getting mass requests for a Bomb "Lite", they may just make one.

I think people have long requested an EVF for Scarlet. But early on most balked at the idea of buying one that cost nearly as much as the camera. Well, happily, that's no longer the case.

 

[strangways]

It looks like the Redrock MicroEVF will be perfectly suitable for the Scarlet, making that an option for anyone who doesn't want to pay for the RED Bomb EVF.

 

[yoclay]

OK, folks. This isn't the place to discuss what happens on REDUSER or SCARLETUSER. Or any other message board, for that matter.

I am a moderator on another site, so I absolutely sympathize with what you have to do here, HOWEVER, if we can't discuss this here on the Epic and Scarlet thread, and we can't discuss it there, and we shouldn't discuss it on any other message board, just where can we discuss it?

Seems to me that there is a big difference between trolling and discussion, and I certainly hope that this site is about more than tech specs and pixel peeping. What happened over there SHOULD be discussed, and certainly in a public forum like this one, because the thin line between marketing and freedom of expression on those sites is very troubling indeed.

 

[Barry_Green]

We have a long history of people dragging other forums' dirty laundry over here. We'd rather not have it.

ScarletUser and Reduser are different, in that they're the chosen official outlets for the Red Digital Cinema Camera Company. They are still privately-owned forums, owned and administered by LandMine. However, because they are also the official voices of Red, they have a lot less tolerance for discussion of things non-Red. And they are free to be that way, and should be allowed to be that way. We here have no tolerance for discussion of politics, religion, or pornography. There are just some basic rules that are set down, and ours exclude those topics. RedUser is more free-flowing, they don't ban discussions of "adult entertainment" - but they do ban discussion of DSLRs, AF100s, etc.

This is not really the place to discuss your World of Warcraft exploits. And the WoW forums are not really the place to discuss the Canon 5D. And, by that same token, RedUser/Scarletuser are not really the place to discuss DSLRs or camcorders. Without rules, you get anarchy. And as history has proven over and over, anarchy doesn't work. So we have rules.

We're more than happy to discuss the Epic, the Scarlet, the M-X, the Red One, etc. But complaints about forum administration, complaining about how they run their place, etc... that stuff we don't really want to go airing here.

 

[Jim Martin]

Well said Barry.....and you're back from Japan...and, looking at Philip Bloom's site, it looks like you guys had a fun time!

 

[brian hanson]

It looks like the Redrock MicroEVF will be perfectly suitable for the Scarlet, making that an option for anyone who doesn't want to pay for the RED Bomb EVF.

i wanna say that someone from RED chimed in that it wouldnt work with scarlet over at REDUSER

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

i wanna say that someone from RED chimed in that it wouldnt work with scarlet over at REDUSER

That makes no sense.