Jason Ramsey
Admin
So what's your estimate of those numbers, smarty pants
I don't even want to speculate on such things beyond what I have already done
Epic and Scarlet release in 2010
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I don't even want to speculate on such things beyond what I have already done
No but the digital cinema 2k and 4k DCI standards use a very similar JPEG2000 wavelet compression codec. It took more than 10 years of wrangling to establish those standards, and a similar amount of time to establish the current HD video digital broadcast and streaming compression standards. These things don't change overnight.
Red's failure is that they talk too much about things that are not final with their 'open' communications. At first, I was a fan of it, and I've seen good things come from them listening to the responses of what their current/future user base want. That said, they have cultivated a series of let downs for people, and they've slowly diluted the excitement of getting your hands on any camera in the Scarlet price range. Don't get me wrong, I still want an S35 as I mentioned earlier, but with every schedule hit and price increase, it doesn't give you warm fuzzies. It's almost like the story of the boy who cries wolf.
What I am impressed with is how Panasonic has talked with many people during their development of the AF100, and at the appropriate times, has given us more to see (and continues to do so) and talk with all of us. They acknowledge why they've made the decisions they have and it has impressed me quite a bit. But, we weren't witness to all the ups and downs of what got added, and what got pulled out of, the final design. I'm sure they probably went through many.
That said, I hope their refocusing works and I want them to succeed. We win if they win
The thing to remember about the AF-100 is that there is no fundamentally new technology involved. It is a repackage job with some tweeks to meet a market price point. Same old play it safe dribbleware that the big companies are famous for. Although they operate on totally different scales, it is the independent entrepreneurs like Jim and Otis that will break the new ground as far as applied technology is concerned. The big boys won't jump into markets until they are proven and safe. They won't take the risks.
Ryan Patrick O'Hara
Veteran
Yes, why do we ignore the development costs, the unit manufacturing cost, the administration costs, the running costs and salaries for development and support, the licensing costs, the capital cost and even income taxes?
For sure... it's kinda like how the Mach3 razor had over 1 billion spent in research, development, and advertisements. Also why people say the XBox, PS3 and other gaming consoles sell for less than they are worth in components, but the company makes it's money back (and more) on the games.
I have a feeling they have not done terribly well on the R1 as far as the camera itself. I'm sure the R&D costs were substantial, and the parts not cheap. However, their accessories are so grossly priced (like anything else in the cinema world) that I bet they did pretty well selling those many many accessories and etc.
aquavideo
Member
I don't even want to speculate on such things beyond what I have already done
Totally understood.
Michael Olsen
Veteran
The 3K for 3K scarlet died a long time ago. Almost 2 years, in fact. Since then, the base price has increased by 100%, and the feature set has vastly expanded. These sort of changes were pronounced, a number of times, to be expected.
If 2/3" won't meet muster for one's needs at an under-$10K price point, the S35 will and has always been too expensive. It has experienced a more modest price increase on the low end (~10%) but has also experienced feature expansion. These sort of changes were pronounced, a number of times, to be expected.
I honestly don't know how anyone could feel "deceived". If I had put a nonrefundable deposit down on one, then realized the line was permanently cancelled and I had no opportunity of retribution, then sure. That a camera experiences a relatively modest increase in price and a great increase in features...that's the kind of deceiving I could get used to.
There may have been a point where this was true. But I think it's been made pretty clear recently that RED isn't planning on taking out the DSLR market or the consumer market. They are after the professional market (which I would say encompasses the high end cinema market). If people have less than $10K to spend on a camera, RED isn't offering any real chance of buying in. If DSLR users or prosumer users see value in RED's cameras once they are released and decide to expand their purchasing limit, then all the power to them. But I think RED is more than happy, at the moment, to let everything under $10K fall to the "big three". And more importantly, I think they are too busy to bother making something that could compete in that arena.
And don't forget that all the future cameras (EPIC + Scarlet) should offer downscaled 1080p RGB .r3d files out of the camera up to 60fps, should you choose to go that route, without the need for any additional module. EPIC and Scarlet won't just be "sensors" without any ability to produce useful images right out of the camera.
If 2/3" won't meet muster for one's needs at an under-$10K price point, the S35 will and has always been too expensive. It has experienced a more modest price increase on the low end (~10%) but has also experienced feature expansion. These sort of changes were pronounced, a number of times, to be expected.
I honestly don't know how anyone could feel "deceived". If I had put a nonrefundable deposit down on one, then realized the line was permanently cancelled and I had no opportunity of retribution, then sure. That a camera experiences a relatively modest increase in price and a great increase in features...that's the kind of deceiving I could get used to.
There may have been a point where this was true. But I think it's been made pretty clear recently that RED isn't planning on taking out the DSLR market or the consumer market. They are after the professional market (which I would say encompasses the high end cinema market). If people have less than $10K to spend on a camera, RED isn't offering any real chance of buying in. If DSLR users or prosumer users see value in RED's cameras once they are released and decide to expand their purchasing limit, then all the power to them. But I think RED is more than happy, at the moment, to let everything under $10K fall to the "big three". And more importantly, I think they are too busy to bother making something that could compete in that arena.
And don't forget that all the future cameras (EPIC + Scarlet) should offer downscaled 1080p RGB .r3d files out of the camera up to 60fps, should you choose to go that route, without the need for any additional module. EPIC and Scarlet won't just be "sensors" without any ability to produce useful images right out of the camera.
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
Yeah, but the "3k for $3k" BS was killed incrementally, so as to foster in the minds of a lot of folks at the lower end that there was this amazing super camera just over the horizon, at just a little bit more of a cost. Of course, I understand the changes, with their associated costs, but I also remember what was hyped in 2008, then in 2009, and now. I don't know, but I try to say what I mean, and live up to it. I don't think that is too much to ask for also from a company that is asking me to spend thousands of dollars on their products.
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
Oh yeah, but that would mean that I have to "Man up" enough to buy their products.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
I'm going to embrace my inner woman and buy the AF-100 and call it good.
Joe Walker
Well-known member
I never thought I'd live to see the day that the posts on DVXuser are actually more informed and rational than the ones on REDuser. I can now sleep restfully tonight.
Paul V Doherty
Active member
Jannard has done tremendous things for the industry...... by provoking the sleeping giants out of their piecemeal dribble tactics, but in 50 years RED will be cited as the textbook example of how not to conduct business.
Ironic, given Jannard's previous success story in the overpriced outdoor accessories trade.
Ironic, given Jannard's previous success story in the overpriced outdoor accessories trade.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, we'll see about that. He's the billionaire entrepreneur, after all. The reasons for why things are done aren't always apparent to the public, but who knows, he may have deals working and networks active that we can't even imagine. Richard Branson has pretty much singlehandedly legitimized the private space tourism industry, and his indulgence has moved the whole industry forward by at least 10 to 15 years. Sounds crazy, the flight of fancy of an eccentric billionaire? Not really. He's selling seats on SpaceShipTwo for $200,000 each. One trip, $200k. And it's sold out for the first year and a half. Before the first flight has even happened.
Billionaires get that way for a reason. I may not understand some of the things Red's doing, but I chalk that up to me just not understanding.
Billionaires get that way for a reason. I may not understand some of the things Red's doing, but I chalk that up to me just not understanding.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
Jason Adams
Section Moderator
Fastest way to become a millionaire?
First be a billionaire and then launch a digital cinema camera.
Regardless of what Jannard does his legacy in the marketing history books is certain. In just a few years he has been able to create an army of zealots from one working camera and the promise of another. Many of REDs most outspoken fans HAVE NO RED. This thread alone has 413 replies. Scarletuser.com has nearly 5,000 members and 80,000 posts. Not bad for a product none of us can buy.
First be a billionaire and then launch a digital cinema camera.
Regardless of what Jannard does his legacy in the marketing history books is certain. In just a few years he has been able to create an army of zealots from one working camera and the promise of another. Many of REDs most outspoken fans HAVE NO RED. This thread alone has 413 replies. Scarletuser.com has nearly 5,000 members and 80,000 posts. Not bad for a product none of us can buy.
It's called brand loyalty. JJ didn't invent it, but Oakley was one of many brands that did well from it. Actually, one of Reds biggest legacies should be that the business grew from a small community and has continued communicating ( sometimes too much ) with that community. It's something a lot of the giants are going to have to slowly get used to.
The users here are story tellers. We're all watching a story unfold. We don't really know the characters very well, nor do we know their intentions or motivations. As story tellers it's our nature to 'fill in' the rest of the story as we imagine the outcome will be. Some paint Jannard as a modern day hero that will some day will be canonized as the Patron Saint of Pixels. Others paint him as an arrogant overgrown kid with more money than sense. Which one is accurate? How does the story end? Will RED succeed? Will RED fail?
It's like watching the worlds longest movie. Fortunately we have long intermissions between actual products being released.
It's like watching the worlds longest movie. Fortunately we have long intermissions between actual products being released.
I am a Red fan, I admit it. But it is not about brand loyalty. It is about the fundamental shift in practical and reasonably affordable digital motion acquisition technology that Red is pioneering. I have had some brief hands on with a Red 1 and spent many hours exploring the creative flexibility of workflows related to Redcode acquisition. For me at least there is no question of going back to a video or film camera as a personal creative imaging tool. Raw acquisition is the only medium going forward that I will be satisfied with.
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
I'd disagree. The sensor is new, and this is important. The GH1 came out after the 5Dm2, yet, Panasonic has created a newer sensor quite a bit faster than Canon who has released 4 more cameras since the 5D (7D,1D,T2I,60D) and Canon STILL hasn't improved on any of the technical downfalls of their sensor design. Same problems. Same Moire, Same aliasing, Same Rolling Shutter performance. Same codec (granted, that is not sensor design there).
Given the speed at which the AF100 has come into existence, I think Panasonic had no other option but to bank on much of their professional features/IP because there was an immediate need for people who have enjoyed the large sensor cameras, but lacked the proper support tools to use the DSLR cameras efficiently. They hit a price point I could afford at this time and I am absolutely thrilled that they've pulled out ahead of the pack by quite a margin here.
The reason I don't consider it dribbleware (and I know what you mean) is that there was a price point target that I believe is important. If the AF100 was between $8k and $10k, at this time I wouldn't be able to afford it.
Is there somewhere on red.com that you copy and paste these little soundbites from? It seems that every post you make (regarding RED) is a perfectly worded piece of marketing blurb :grin:
I'm not bashing the AF-100. It is a nice step up for what it is. I thought when the GH1 first came out that Panasonic would be the first to make a low end large sensor video camera. M4/3 is such a natural format for this. The new sensor is optimized for HD video with a proper OLPF to minimize artifacts and improved speed for less rolling shutter, but this is just a necessary incremental step in the development of a true HD video camera. Out the back end it still just another 8 bit prosumer level video camera. Panasonic is responding to and serving the low end indie film maker market, something they have done very well over the years and there is nothing at all wrong with that. Compared to 12 bit or 16 bit high resolution raw imaging it just leaves a lot to be desired. I am so looking forward to having the same kind of creative imaging power for motion that raw formats have provided for still photography.
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