Entry level DSLR?

M. Gilden said:
There are some excellent second hand Panasonics that are great for video and the same-price-if-not-cheaper than their Canon equivalents. Sony's recent models are great too, and even current models are selling dirt cheap these days (Have you seen the prices on A5100 and A6000 bodies lately?). Meanwhile Canon cameras retain their value better on the second hand market because photography hasn't changed much and Canon is a recognizable name brand. The used market hasn't been so kind so Panasonic- prices on incredible tech are less than a 1/3 of where they were selling for not too long ago. And you can get FD glass super cheap, also great for starting out and compatible with M43 but not Canon.
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Which models from Panasonic compare to Canon, other than the GH series?

In the second hand market Sony is one of the best options. Nikon is in the same boat as Canon with second hand prices, except the flip out screen and general video controls and ML make the Canon slightly more compelling as a cheap video camera over the Nikon's.

Canon's do retain their value alright, and that goes into a second or third resale. Keep it a year and sell it for the same price you bought it. Deferred low cost. =D I actually don't play that game though. I always go in with the idea I am keeping the gear, so I treat it kindly, but don't worry how it looks to others.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
Again I think the perfect starter video camera right now is the Nikon D5300. I am not suggesting that any other camera would be particularly bad oe that it wouldn't allow you to learn video and create great projects, they will do that just fine, starting from a 100$ used Canon 1100D to a Canon C500. They will all do the job for a beginner. What I mean here is what's slightly better and worse.

I dismiss Canon DSLRs solely because of the horrible moire and aliasing issues. Some limitations actually help the beginner but this is not one of them, unless you want to become an expert in aliasing and moire patterns!

I dismiss all the m43s stuff because of the sensor size, which is not the video standard s35, learning on a s35 camera will go a very long way in understanding how lenses behqve and look, I really advice getting an APS-C for beginners.

Another reason is that the native m43s lenses are limited to only that format and will not work on future s35 cameras, while buying Nikon lenses will be a very strong investment for future cameras and future video production. The cheap lens collection available from Canon and Nikon is simply outstanding, lenses that are simply un rivaled are the Canon 10-18mm, the Canon/Nikon 50mm 1.8s, the Canon/nikon 55-250mm teles, these lenses are outstanding performers and they have autofocus, image stabilization, aperture control and they are future proof and compatiable with future investments. The lens collection reason alone is probably worth getting a Canon/Nikon DSLR over a m43s or camcorder or Sony.

Third thing is that it's a bit harder to get a pleasing good looking image out of a panasonic/m43s cameras, the colours don't sing straight of the cards and require skill and the dof is deeper than standard s35, you can get a pleasing image out of them but requires a bit tweaking and knowledge which I don't recommend for someone just starting out, if he finds his first video unpleasing he might give up, starting with a Canon/Nikon DSLRs like we all did gives that first confidence boost and teaches you all the basics, after that you can graduate to a m43s camera after you have better grading experience and shooting experience and lenses. Your Nikon s35 lenses will work on future m43s cameras but not vice versa.

Fourth reason is stills and how good these Nikon and Canon DSLRs are in doing that job, which every video beginner does extensively, we all love stills!

Just get a Nikon D5300, provides one of the best images up to a very high price point, has a great lens collection which is dirt cheap, produces a pleasing image easily, has the professional standard sensor size of s35, its lenses are future compatiable, does best stills especially for AF/IS, has all the features you need to learn professional video on as a beginner.

The only down side is that you will not learn Focus peaking/zebras or have an EVF, which would be great to learn as a beginner, the Nikon doesn't provide these couple of features. Nothing is perfect but for that specific need the Nikon DSLRs are the best beginner video cameras, at the time of writing this comment!
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You make a compelling case for the Nikons. I was at a camera store the other day and really enjoyed the Nikon colors. I hadn't seen them in person for a while. To my eye it looks a bit hyped, but the right kind of hyped for me. Canon has the signature dslr video look that defined an era. And the Sony A-whatever looked almost nasty, but I would still consider one.

I still think the t3i flip out screen, more video friendly ergonomics, and ML are strong arguments for a second hand T3i, but if IQ is top priority out-of-camera , then, a D5300. (assuming we are talking about sub $500 secondhand cameras here)
 
To be honest the T3i with ML is one of the nicest cameras to use EVER erginomically and in terms of fast shooting and ease of use. Much better than a Nikon in that usability aspect. The Nikons just feel clunky and unintuitive conpared to it.

I own both a 60D and a D5300, the 60D is just an absolute breath to use and change settings. For example the liveview implementation is much better, meaning I can change aperture during recording, while on the D5300 I have to go out if liveview completely, change iris, then go back in. The Nikon Zoom Focus assist is much worse, just really worse. It has a very bad lag and it doesn't go in and out as fast as the Canon, which has perhaos the best punch-in focus assist I've seen on any camera, inclduing the C300!

The focus peaking on ML is perfect, and entirely customizable, it's a nuch better inplementation than even built-in cameras that have peaking, also the zebras are perfect, you can set exposure much more easier with the Canon because you actually have a waveform monitor, and a histogram live on screen, all of these features are just not available on the Nikon, making it much more clunkier to use overall. I always feel like I am struggling with it.

But I still suggest the D5300 over the Canons, simply because of the horrible moire and aliasing on the Canons. And after spending time with the Nikon you will definitely get used to it and work fast with the ergonomics, yet enjoy better image quality. I don't use the 60D anymore because the Nikon images make me smile, the lack of aliasing, a stop better lowlight performance and finer grain, and for me better colours, I prefer Nikon colours to any other system outthere. There's something about it.

But yes I agree, if usability and ergonomics are the most important factor and you can live with aliasing and moire, get a 600D or 60D, but if you can live with a bit worse ergonomics and want a better image quality, go with the Nikon.

I wouldn't upgrade from a Canon DSLR to a D5300 etc unless I really hate aliasing, otherwise cameras haven't really made a huge jump yet from Canon's first generation round as you said. But for a new buyer I would just get the slightly better one, the D5300.

But it is quite funny how Canon DSLRs are being considered now as horrible when in real life and fir actual audience no other manufacturer has made a noticable jump in quality since these T3i/5D/7D generation, for 90% of video consumers they're all the same and they can't see the slight umage differences you get with newer cameras. I would say the GH4 is the first real jump from a T3i in quality that's noticeable for real world viewers.
 
James0b57 said:
Which models from Panasonic compare to Canon, other than the GH series?
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*Points to G6 for sale in Sig*

Seriously though, the GM1 and GX7 are basically a poor-man's GH4 without 4k (same sensor in the case of GM1, similar in Gx7, similar color science, focus peaking, 1080/60p, virtually no moire/aliasing, etc.). The G6 is a GH2 sensor in an updated body, better screen and new color science / 1080/60 (GH2 original only did 60p in 720), and focus peaking, wifi, etc. These cameras are all well under the OP's budget, in line with used Canons (aside maybe from the Gx7 which is still popular because of its style) and offer way more video-friendly features.

In the second hand market Sony is one of the best options. Nikon is in the same boat as Canon with second hand prices, except the flip out screen and general video controls and ML make the Canon slightly more compelling as a cheap video camera over the Nikon's.
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Yeah, if the user is willing to tinker with ML, I'd definitely choose that over Nikon. The Nikons being mentioned above don't suffer from M&A the way a Canon would, though. So, not sure where I'd go with that one.

As far as Ebrahim's m43 sensor size thing- I hear that, but understand that a Canon is starting at 1.6x crop (not the 1.5 of actual s35) then cropping in additionally to get the 16:9 letterbox. Some of these M43 sensors have multi-aspect ratio sensors that grow outwards in 16:9, making them extremely close in crop size to a Canon while recording video. Personally I roll with focal reducers which gives me about a 1.4x crop on the GH2 (APS-C lenses actually vignette), so the FOV/crop factor has never been much of a talking point to me.
I do understand that not everyone is interested in spending more money on a focal reducer after buying a camera body, but a Panny + speedbooster won't cost that much at the end of the day, and will get a superior image and superior ergonomics to just about any DSLR.
 
M. Gilden said:
*Points to G6 for sale in Sig*

Seriously though, the GM1 and GX7 are basically a poor-man's GH4 without 4k (same sensor in the case of GM1, similar in Gx7, similar color science, focus peaking, 1080/60p, virtually no moire/aliasing, etc.). The G6 is a GH2 sensor in an updated body, better screen and new color science / 1080/60 (GH2 original only did 60p in 720), and focus peaking, wifi, etc. These cameras are all well under the OP's budget, in line with used Canons (aside maybe from the Gx7 which is still popular because of its style) and offer way more video-friendly features.



Yeah, if the user is willing to tinker with ML, I'd definitely choose that over Nikon. The Nikons being mentioned above don't suffer from M&A the way a Canon would, though. So, not sure where I'd go with that one.

As far as Ebrahim's m43 sensor size thing- I hear that, but understand that a Canon is starting at 1.6x crop (not the 1.5 of actual s35) then cropping in additionally to get the 16:9 letterbox. Some of these M43 sensors have multi-aspect ratio sensors that grow outwards in 16:9, making them extremely close in crop size to a Canon while recording video. Personally I roll with focal reducers which gives me about a 1.4x crop on the GH2 (APS-C lenses actually vignette), so the FOV/crop factor has never been much of a talking point to me.
I do understand that not everyone is interested in spending more money on a focal reducer after buying a camera body, but a Panny + speedbooster won't cost that much at the end of the day, and will get a superior image and superior ergonomics to just about any DSLR.
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Also, great points for the Panny argument.

My main point in participating in this thread, is that cameras have improved, but nothing that substantially warrants upgrading, and all the first gen video dslr's are now cheap as GoPros, but are 90% as good as the latest gen dslr's at the end of the day. And they make the same money as more expensive models when you get a job.

Al of the newer cameras may have solved moire', but most of the other issues are there:

-highly compress 8bit HD
-reduced DR (compared to stills mode)
-almost intentionally bad control layouts
-no global shutter


Panny may at the edge of the specs sheet, but I have seen very little that I like coming out of the G/GH line. With good grading or studio control, results can be Red Epic like. So I do not want to diminish what is possible with that camera. May just be the types of users out there making video with them.

But some good options in the second hand sub$500 range.
 
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James0b57 said:
cameras have improved, but nothing that substantially warrants upgrading
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I started shooting with the 550D in 2009 to shoot home movies, but it soon after replaced my Sony EX3 rental for paying projects. I upgraded to the 60D when it came out and then added a 600D as a B-cam. I've shot hundreds of projects with these 2 cameras waiting for something better. The 5D3 is better but I can rent that when needed. The GH4 is the first reasonable upgrade because of 4K resolution, size and price, plus the speedbooster has changed everything. There are many other choices with BMD, Kini, etc, but for the beginner I would get the cheapest "used" one available Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Nikon with the plan to sell it as soon as they can decide what will be right for them.
I have to say that the menu is important for quick work under pressure and the Canon menu is set up well. I didn't like the Nikon menu and have no experience with Sony or Panasonic, but I would put menu at the top of the priority list.

Here is a channel I started in 2013. I shot, edited and uploaded 133 short film clips and they were all shot with a 60D and 600D, Tamron 17-50 Canon 70-200 f4L, Jucedlink mixer Sony wired lavs and 2 hand held dynamic mics. Nothing perfect but shows what can be done with any of these cameras. Canon or others. I have to cover 10 different corners in a 10 lap race and also shoot checkered flag. Lap times are 2:16 so I have about 2 minutes to move to a new corner set up ready for the first car to come into frame. I have to ride on the back of a motorcycle about 7 to 10km each race. It's a lot of fun. Highly recommended.
After 2 years I finally had to resign as editor, but will still be shooting all the events next year with a 2 camera GH4 4K package.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN2alVIl1vsVwCagRQr9j9w
 
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ROCKMORE said:
...for the beginner I would get the cheapest "used" one available Canon, Sony, Panasonic, Nikon with the plan to sell it as soon as they can decide what will be right for them.
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Big plus one. (also, nice reel!)
 
James0b57 said:
Which models from Panasonic compare to Canon, other than the GH series?

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I've also been looking for a cheaper carry around. The Panny Fz1000 looked hopeful but missing important options like NTSC/PAL or 4K recording other than 30P which will look like super video.
So what is the choice over what we all have in the bag already over a t3i or 5300? Not much unfortunately. What would get me excited in a carry around is something I don't have. The GoPro 4 Black is an awesome option with 4K 24p 25p, 120fps 1080p wifi etc. plus almost anything proof. I could see shooting everything at 120fps for a few months but I may get tired of that. The ultrawide lens may get annoying but it does have med and tight views. And of course you need a smart phone to see what you are shooting. What's holding me back from the Gopro is the $500 ++ will get me a speedbooster or something else I need and want.
For the beginner I still say what ever is the cheapest used 1080p camera with 24p / 25p. But for the rest of us it's going to be at least $2,000 to even want to get out of bed.
I'm selling my less than a year old replacement 60D which would be a great beginner camera and still under warrantee till Feb with one of my wide zooms, but unfortunately I live in SE Asia and won't be home in the US till June.
 
  • Maybe slightly off topic for the beginner, but maybe not. This camera has some real pro specs in terms of frame rates fields of view, manual controls, flat picture styles and in the base price for a beginner.
  • For some time I've been looking for a small pocket weatherproof camera but all the Canons, Nikons, Pannys etc all fall short where you need it. Some shoot only 30fps others only go as wide as 28mm 1080 to 720 60p so nothing at all to work with, a few steps back from an old 550D.
  • The specs on the GoPro 4 black would be something new in the bag that I can't come close right now. Could be a good b-cam option to a GH4 that I can even wear while shooting with a GH-4. Santa, are you feeling me?
  • GoPro 4 Black is making my mouth water thinking about the image making possibilities.
  • 4K – 24 & 30 – Wide

    This is a new standard of quality for the HERO4 and my favorite mode when I don’t need slow motion. In editing, even when scaled to 1080P, you instantly know when you’re looking at a 4K shot vs a 2.7K shot. The level of detail and clarity is stunning, especially with good outdoor light. At 60 MBit/s 4K is pretty much max-ing out the data flow, so when you film extremely high motion scenes you’ll start to see a bit of compression blocking. That being said, it still holds up well and looks great for most applications.
    Uses:
    Anything you don’t need slow motion! Quadcopters, B-Roll, interviews, etc. 16:9 frame has a less immersive feel for POV so a 4:3 mode is generally better for fast action POV. Use 24 FPS for slightly better low light performance. Look to higher frame rates for reduced rolling shutter on mounts with a lot of vibration.
  • 4K SuperView – 24

    This takes advantage of the full frame of the sensor, pulling the images from the taller 4:3 aspect ratio and dynamically stretching them down to 16:9 4K. This gives you more view above and below what would be your normal 16:9 frame. It looks great but should generally only be used for POV/mounted shots; otherwise, the dynamic stretch may give undesirable distortion over your footage.
    Uses:
    This will be big for action sports films that want to take advantage of 4K and good immersive POV.
  • 2.7K – 48 – Wide & Medium

    This looks almost identical to the 2.7K 30 we’re used to in the HERO3+ but at 48 FPS, so it’s a stunning mode to use. This is my new ‘everything’ standard for filming non-POV footage. I use this in place of 1080-60 in the HERO3+. If you’re in PAL, you can get an extra 2 FPS and have 2.7K 50. Medium will naturally have a bit more grain in lower light as you’re cropping in on the sensor and are closer to actual pixel size without scaling.
    Uses:
    Mounted non-POV, auto, B-Roll, drones, pole-cam, diving, etc. 48 FPS will help with reducing rolling shutter on mounts with high vibration, compared to 30 FPS.
  • 2.7K 4:3 – 30

    Similar to 1440P, this mode takes advantage of the full 4:3 aspect ratio of the sensor. It has the same width dimensions as 2.7K but is taller with a height of 2028 px (vs 1524 px of 2.7K). This mode can take the place of 1440-30 (my old favorite mode in the HERO3+). I use this anytime I want to capture the most real, immersive, and real-time POV (no slow motion). I utilize dynamic stretch techniques to pop it into a 16:9 frame when editing.
    Uses:
    Anything POV that doesn’t need slow motion. This is great for wearing on your chest or head to capture daily life, behind the scenes work, car driving, etc. Works well indoors & outdoors.
  • 2.7K Superview – 30

    This mode takes the tall 4:3 frame captured in 2.7K 4:3 and dynamically stretches it down to a 2.7K 16:9 frame. If you want quick and immersive POV footage without dynamically stretching the footage yourself, this is a great mode to use.
    Uses:
    Anything POV that doesn’t need slow motion. Use this over 4K Superview when 24 FPS isn’t enough. This will work well in low light situations.
  • 1440 – 60

    This is the 4:3 version of 1080, so it’s the same width as 1080P but taller at 1440 px vertically. The HERO3+ has this mode in 30 and 48 FPS. HERO4 Black adds 60 and 80 FPS to the list. 1440-60 takes the same quality we’ve had with 1440-48 in HERO3+, but brings it up to 60 FPS. It’s a welcomed addition; you can feel the increase in FPS when slowing the footage down to 50%. As with 1440-48 in the HERO3+, when looking at 100% you’ll see very slight jagged edges/aliasing compared against 1440-30. This is due to it being processed slightly differently to get the combination of high resolution and high frame rate. This is my go-to mode for all around great high action POV. I utilize the dynamic stretch techniques to properly put this into a 16×9 timeline.
    Uses:
    Anything POV that you may want to slow down in editing.
  • 1440 – 80

    When you make the jump from 1440-60 to 80, there’s a slight change in quality. You’ll see a bit more aliasing on hard edges in 1440-80 when comparing to 1440-60 or 48. It’s the same quality you’ll see in 1080-120 Wide, so these two modes mix and match well. In editing you can slow this down to 37.5% of original speed and still retain 30 FPS.
    Uses:
    High action POV that you want to capture better slow motion. Generally you’ll want to stick to outdoors; avoid using this in lowlight or dark indoor areas.
  • 1080 – 90 & 120 – Wide

    1080-90 and 1080-120 are identical in image quality and processing. When looking closely against 4K or 1080-60, you may notice aliased edges similar to that of 1440-80. It looks great on the web.
    Uses:
    Any high action moments you want to slow down a lot that require the full wide angle of the GoPro. If image quality is your highest priority, look to 2.7K-48 or 1080-60. 1080-90 will handle slightly better with lower light, but generally you’ll want to stick to good light outdoors with these modes.
  • 1080 – 120 – Narrow

    This is an amazing new mode that looks very similar to 1080-60 Narrow in the HERO3+. It’s clean, gets rid of the wide angle, and shoots at 120 FPS in full HD. You can try quick moving shots or not worry about being as smooth with the camera since you can slow down the moments so much. This mode will appear noisier compared against 1080-60 wide when looking at 100% since it’s cropping so narrowly into the center of the sensor, and it’s not getting a ton of light while capturing at 120 FPS.
    Uses:
    Try this on a drone or pole cam for interesting slow motion shots. It will add something extra and different to your videos! Remember to have plenty of light since the frame rate is so high.
  • 1080 Superview – 60

    HERO3+ has this mode as well; however, the quality has been upgraded slightly in the HERO4. This mode is very clean and a great setting to use for anything POV (if you don’t want to deal with 4:3 aspect ratios of 1440.)
    Uses:
    Anything/Everything POV – beautiful image quality. Use this over 1080 Superview – 80 if you’re looking for the best image quality.
  • 1080 Superview – 80

    Similar to 1440, when you make the jump from 60 FPS to 80 you’ll see slightly more aliasing in the image. When comparing against 1440-80 or 1080-90 at 100% this mode will have a bit better quality since it’s scaling down from a larger 1440 frame.
    Uses:
    High action POV – use this over 60 FPS if you’re looking for better slow motion.
  • 960 – 120

    960 – 100 is in the HERO3+ and GoPro has taken the same mode and added 20 more FPS. This is still the go-to mode if you want the best slow motion for your high action POV moments. This is also one of the best modes to use for Instagram video – the 4:3 aspect ratio is closer to a square and it has great slow motion. For normal 16:9 video sharing, if you utilize the dynamic stretch tricks in post, the quality generally holds up well against higher resolutions.
    Uses:
    Highest/fast action POV that you want to slow down. Surf barrels, skate trick POV, cliff diving, etc.
  • 720 Superview – 120

    720 Superview 120 is a great, clean mode to get the best slow motion for your high action POV moments. It’s similar to 960-120; however, this mode simply dynamically stretches the 4:3 video into a 16:9 frame for you. Clarity-wise, it will be tough to hold up well next to 4K; however, used in the right way, and sparingly, could work well in a high quality video online.
    Uses:
    Highest/fast action POV that you want to slow down. Surf barrels, skate trick POV, cliff diving, etc.
 
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I shoot a lot of wide but along with a variety of medium and telephoto shots. But seeing the cost and relative lack of good fast ultra wide lenses in m43, the GoPro 4 has a great deal of potential as a b-cam for the price of one extra wide lens. Might be a good option and a second camera as apposed to just a single wide lens.
But it shows how much power is available for a beginner to start with in the $500 range. I know some may say limited and all wide Pov cam but if you look at the 2.5k options in med and narrow fields of view @ 48fps or 60fps it's a versatile camera. I used to shoot everything at 48fps in 16mm film which is not exactly slow motion but not reality either. Being able to shoot various frame rates and large fields then crop them to 1080 could be a very creative tool for learning film makers.
There are many ways to begin, this is just another option.
 
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