Enter the Dragon - 20-Stops of Dynamic-Range

nyvz said:
Generally in image sensors: photosite light is linear, charge is linear, voltage is linear, adc is linear, but then that digital signal can be encoded in many different ways, log, linear, gamma-encoded, compressed, uncompressed, etc. Of course there certainly variations in this as well, where even analog or adc conversions could be adjusted or made non-linear but it is not very common.
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Exactly. Which is why I was speculating that if RED wants to keep its 16-bit file format system they may need to change from linear encoding to log encoding (or as someone else suggested move to a 24-bit file system). But I was largely speculating that a log encoded format might allow it to hold more dynamic range but that doesn't seem to be true, and many articles have debunked that notion.

But the one thing a Log encoded format would do for RED if they kept it 16-bit is allow it to hold more information and yield more precision and uniform data quantization between stops - which would especially be needed to protect the dark tones and keep ugly noise away.

*For the record when I say "log encoded" or "linear encoded" it refers to how the linear image from the sensor is processed BEFORE it is stored to a digital file system! Digital file systems can encode image data in linear or log methods. There is no magic there.
 
OK, so we're all in the same page then...

Now: to me, keeping linear encoding makes no sense at all. If 10-bit-log is perfectly alright for storing 12 stops of DR, then 11-bit-log is just as good for storing 24 stops of DR. Make that 12-bit-log, and forget about linear already.
 
I read all 436 posts on RedUser last night and Jim has only said that Dragon will use REDCODE (linear encoding). A few people did ask about 24-bit linear but so far no one at RED has taken the bait.

A 24-bit linear format would be absolutely stupid, especially for 3D work where twice the amount of data is needed! Log-c hasn't failed ARRI so maybe RED will take something from that.... nah, doubt it they are "game changers". :cool:
 
With all the patents RED owns on REDCODE, they're not going to bail on it. As jim also mentioned, with Dragon having 50 percent less noise than MX, REDCODE is going to much more efficient too.
 
starcentral said:
I read all 436 posts on RedUser last night
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Holy s**t dude, need an aspirin?

A 24-bit linear format would be absolutely stupid, especially for 3D work where twice the amount of data is needed! Log-c hasn't failed ARRI so maybe RED will take something from that.... nah, doubt it they are "game changers". :cool:
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Log makes sense, because the upper dynamic range is contaminated with photon shot noise anyway, you can easily compress at least a few stops of highlights in without any perceptible loss. That said, Raw is a single channel of interspersed data, so going to 20+bits still wouldn't be as crippling as a 4:4:4 RGB format in terms of storage.
 
I don't understand half of what is being discussed here, but I appreciate the conversation. I too have been over at RED attempting to read what's going on, but it is hard to find it amongst the ego boosting.
 
Well some of us are basically wondering with 18-20 stops of dynamic range from the new Dragon sensor, will a new recording format emerge and hence possibly require other new hardware, faster SSD's, newer SSD module (they switched with RED One -> EPIC/Scarlet), etc..? Or possibly worse depending how you look at it will they veer away from 16-bit linear and go higher... perhaps to 24-bit linear resulting in absurd amounts of data, bit-rates and file sizes?

So far RED has avoided the 24-bit question a few times in the RECON thread but Jim did indicate that there will be a new ASIC to process the sensor data and in another post alluded to REDCODE use for Dragon.

But my suspicion is still strong that a new format will result, as 20 stops of dynamic range in a 16-bit linear format no matter how clean it is is only going to result in exponentially less information and hence insufficient levels in parts of the tonal range. (particularly dark tones)

I'll admit it took me a while to understand why linear data is actually quite non-linear in terms of how much data per stop is allocated once it goes to post.
 
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Hit the Red team button(top right corner of a red team members post) to skip the fluff, no need to read every post especially when all the answers you need/will get are in the red team posts.
 
It's great that technology marches forward and eventually it trickles down to the pro-sumer level, but most of this is just an esoteric discussion if you can't afford a new Epic with a Dragon sensor. I look forward to seeing a movie like the Social Network shot on a Red with a Dragon sensor, just like I was interested to see the HFR look from Peter Jackson, but the wide spread availability of $3,000 dollar cameras like the BMC is much more interesting.
 
Every time a Red-related thread pops up on Dvxuser, we get lots of bitching about fanboi-ish tone at Reduser. Have you guys seriously not noticed that Dvxuser gets at least as bad every time Sony/Canon/Panasonic make an announcement?

Just a thought.
 
Lee Saxon said:
Every time a Red-related thread pops up on Dvxuser, we get lots of bitching about fanboi-ish tone at Reduser. Have you guys seriously not noticed that Dvxuser gets at least as bad every time Sony/Canon/Panasonic make an announcement?

Just a thought.
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Actually, lots of times DVXusers discuss contrast and compare. Were as lots of REDusers post on Recon accolades to licking Jannards rear end. The very mention of other cameras over there might even get you banned or on Jannard's list. Had lunch with him long before RED in the Oakley days with my ex girlfriends family. He was an ASS then and apparently an ASS today.

But even so, more power to them and their product.
 
Lee Saxon said:
Every time a Red-related thread pops up on Dvxuser, we get lots of bitching about fanboi-ish tone at Reduser. Have you guys seriously not noticed that Dvxuser gets at least as bad every time Sony/Canon/Panasonic make an announcement?

Just a thought.
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Not really. There's your typical hpx250 vs xf300 vs pmw200 discussion, because they fairly similar, but no one really has a hardcore attachment to any of those models.

Then there's the GH3 vs Canon vs Nikon dslr crowd, but they tend to play nice too, never seen anyone in especially heated arguments about small sensor camcorders and dSLRs either, usually it's actually people wanting to supplement one type of camera with another.

Sony's new F series is getting universal praise even from competitors, and everyone dislikes Canon's arm and leg prices for their Cinema cameras vs features offered.

And the only arguments RED cameras start on DVX is whether or not 4K is really necessary and how noisy the fan is.

At least that's my impression. I believe reduser gets mocked for the childish glee that it's members seem to perpetually exist in, I've seen so many comments in the "Enter the Dragon" thread involving backflips, that you'd think they were training a circus.
 
You guys slagging off Red, Jim Jannard and Redusers do realise you are behaving in exactly the same po-faced, childish manner as those that you accuse. Probably time to give it a rest - it's very tedious.
 
The noise level I think is also related to the user base and its pure numbers. Considering it's a manufacturers site with a billionaire who will reply to posts, there is going to be some very specific(and one minded) viewpoints, and plenty of ass kissing.

DVXuser for the most part is... better, though it still has it's celebrities who get praise and those pointless "Hurrah" posts just no where near as many. Sadly it seems many sites have lost the wonderful and helpful community there once was, I'm not sure if it's a new generation or just once again the pure numbers now visiting and posting, that does not mean there are not gems hidden amongst the... it's just a little more difficult to find them. Perhaps if the post ranking was evolved more to the point where threads could be collapsed to only useful info on the given topic and then catalogued for serch by topic and query?

Though as I have come to realize there have been many people who have been very offended by red and in some casses very justified in their hatred, they messed up, and Red is the first to admit this(nowadays). Though I do think the personal comments about Jim are a little unnecessary, though he's put himself out there... so it's fair, it's just... who he is in his personal life is not of my concern and neither is gossip or assumptions about his motivations or past dealings with his previous companies. I'm here to learn and grow as a filmmaker, read about and discuss films, not to gossip and attack people's character, then again I'm only one of many many members of this site, and by no means have the right tell anyone how to act. Just putting my perspective in, throw it out if you don't like it, fine with me.

I guess it all depends on which side of the fence you are on! (or perhaps you are stuck in a rather uncomfortable position of dangling in the middle frantically looking to both sides for help to no avail)

Have a good one! and don't sweat the small stuff!
 
dustylense said:
Had lunch with him long before RED in the Oakley days with my ex girlfriends family. He was an ASS then and apparently an ASS today.
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I bet there's a great story there! FWIW, sounds like he's retiring fairly soon and putting Jarred, who in my limited interactions is much more diplomatic and even-tempered, in charge.

Kolor-Pikker said:
...and everyone dislikes Canon's arm and leg prices for their Cinema cameras vs features offered.
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That hasn't been my experience. I got shouted down pretty hard by several people including Barry when I suggested the C100 wasn't well priced.

Kolor-Pikker said:
At least that's my impression. I believe reduser gets mocked for the childish glee that it's members seem to perpetually exist in, I've seen so many comments in the "Enter the Dragon" thread involving backflips, that you'd think they were training a circus.
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Recon [Announcements] certainly gets ridiculous. As S. Matthews mentioned, you have to just hit the "Red Team" button to get the news and ignore the rest.

The rest of Reduser is totally different, though. Tons of very experienced and talented people sharing their knowledge; I especially love the Lens board.
 
DVinfo.net is one of the oldest and best run blogs out there....everyone has to use their real names and the guy who runs it, Chris Hurd, keeps things under control....as he says, "this is an information sharing site". I spend most of my posting time on this, DVXuser, & DVinfo.... the best ones......I'm not sure if the mods will allow this post...but we'll see.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com
 
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