End of shoulder mounted Camcorders?

maxemanuel

maxemanuel

Member
I'm wondering if the next gen of professional Camcorders will still be shoulder mounted like the HPX300, 500 oder even the big 3700 etc. In some ways Cams like the Sony EX Series are replacing more and more the typical shoulder Camcorders. In my opinion, I don't think that a typical big and heavy shoulder camcorder can be replaced through such palm cams oder even DSLRs! Just 'cause the way to work with Palms, even with the shoulder adaption kits, is way far from working with with a real shoulder mounted camcorder. So what do you think?
 
If you want a really smooth hand held shot, having the momentum of a shoulder rig really helps.
But the smaller hand held cams, like the HVX 200 are really nice too when you turn on the image stabilizer. Especially if you are in cramped quarters. I would avoid the ergonomic challenges of the EX1s and 3s and RED.
 
No chance, no way

No chance, no way

maxemanuel said:
I'm wondering if the next gen of professional Camcorders will still be shoulder mounted like the HPX300, 500 oder even the big 3700 etc. In some ways Cams like the Sony EX Series are replacing more and more the typical shoulder Camcorders. In my opinion, I don't think that a typical big and heavy shoulder camcorder can be replaced through such palm cams oder even DSLRs! Just 'cause the way to work with Palms, even with the shoulder adaption kits, is way far from working with with a real shoulder mounted camcorder. So what do you think?
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I don't believe that would ever happen for one tiny second, and in fact that couldn't be any farther from the truth. Professionals use shoulder mount for MANY reasons. Not only that but the exact opposite is happening, more of the "cheaper" cameras are becoming shoulder mounted... Case in point : HPX300, JVC HD1XX series, JVC HM700, Sony HVR S720U, Sony HD1000U, Panasonic HMC 70U, Panasonic AG-DVC20, The list goes on and on... They are making more an more shoulder mounted cameras, not the other way around.

This goes back to the other point made on a different thread on here, I really believe these people who keep knocking these cameras also know NOTHING about them. I believe if you are a pro and shooting for years, there is no way you would give up shooting shoulder mounted for some dinky camera that will give you horrible wrist problems the rest of your shooting life. Has anyone who is agreeing to this ever done real work with them? I'm not talking shooting a few times with a friends camera, I'm talking shot some actual long tearm projects? I keep having to say this lately but here it goes again... There is a reason why the actual professional cameras are $40,000 and up, and are shoulder mounted in the same format as all the rest. Its tried and true and perfect for a professional environment. Most episodic tv shows are shot on film, and if its not film (or RED) than its shot with shoulder mounted 2/3'' professional ENG sized cameras.

Real camera men and woman need good glass on their cameras, none of them would say "hmm I want a lighter less balanced camera that has a cheep non professional lens built into it, and can only shoot resting on my hands". You need real glass, great HD or SD zooms could never work on a small body camera, they would weigh more than the camera and you would never be able to get a shot properly with them, without actually having to have a shoulder mount. Why do these people even think its "easier" to shoot with these little hand held things? Shooting all day for a week straight with an HPX500 is WAY easier than doing the same with an HVX200. Your wrist feels like its going to fall off by the second day with an HVX200. It would take all your strength to keep a shot steady for that long with something that didn't rest on your shoulder. I (and probably other camera ops out there) could most likely fall asleep while shooting and still keep a stead shot, just for the simple fact that the camera is resting on your shoulder NOT on your wrist and arms, and NOT having to hold it up like that the entire time.

There are reasons why they like their 200's and other small cameras, its because either A) they cannot afford a shoulder one, B) They are only weekend shooters C) Are intimidated by a professional ENG camera D) don't have the clients to need a professional ENG camera. OR E) Don't even have the eye to notice the difference between the two. Any one of tho's reasons is enough to say that you wouldn't have the right to say anything about ENG cameras then, because you have not worked in a higher level to understand why.

I would never knock different types of motorcycles that are above mine, I ride sports bikes, but the Harley guys hate the sport guys and vica versa, I don't follow that, because I can see why they love their bikes and I would never say mine is better than theirs without ever riding a few thousand miles on one first. I really do believe the people loving their small cameras, don't shoot the same thing the big camera guys do, so they should have no say in what camera is better, or where that market should go. I would never say to a harley guy... wow your bike is too heavy and slow, everyone is getting lighter cheaper faster sport bikes, you should too. That just shows you that you would have no idea what you'd be talking about. Once you tried riding cross country on a Harley vs. Yamaha street bike, I'm sure you'd be begging to get on a Harley to finish your ride back home. And again this is coming from someone who rides sport bikes only. I still understand why the Harley is the king of the road and my yamaha sport bike isnt.

And just to make it clear I wasnt meaning "you" as in maxemanuel, I was using "You" as a general you.
 
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Hey Giuseppe:

Have shot hundreds of hours with the 200, never found my wrists hurting. Sure helped out my lower right side of my back. A shoulder mounted camera is not nearly as quick, when jumping in and out of cars, trucks, and planes. There is a tool for every occasion.
 
Yeah, I doubt that the shoulder mount camera is any danger of going the way of the dodo bird anytime soon. I think that this is especially true if we are expecting the major players (Panasonic, Sony, and, maybe JVC) to start giving us large sensor camcorders based on the HD-DSLR products, but built for video professionals. While professional audio boards, and DSP and image control boards may get smaller, professional glass, for large sized sensors won't. Nor will the need for professional spec switches, knobs and buttons. While performance (image quality, audio quality) are very important, so is reliability, durability and ease of use. Putting high end video quality into dainty handicam style camecorders and turning them loose in a fleet of cameras for rental or to ENG or high volume video production crews is not just going to happen overnight, if ever.

I also don't see the modular approach that RED is championing will take the professional production world by storm either. I personally don't see high volume houses, where 1920 x 1080 resolution is the standard, will take that approach. I mean, how many back up gizmo accessories do you budget for, for each camera "Brain" you invest in?

Yeah, I think that the shoulder mount camera form factor will be with us for a while.
 
Shoulder mount cameras are definitely NOT going away, and I think Mr. Pugliese brings up some fantastic points why they'll be here for a long time to come.

I strongly agree. I think there are too many hand held users that love to rip on shoulder mount systems without any real background.

But there is a LOT more grey area on this issue when it comes to camera choice. And which is better. As you move forward you're going to have to weigh in more carefully what's going to be right for the jobs and projects you're doing.

That being said, would I tell a paid operator at an event that he should be using a EX-1 instead of an HDC-1500? Absolutely not! Would I criticize a film maker who needs four independent audio inputs and super low light abilities for using an HPX-500? No WAY!!!

However, for me personally, when I'm on the river banks for 12~14 hours I'll take an HPX170 with a Tortlerig before I ever went back to a shoulder camera. When I have a good paying client that wants a beautiful piece in a place where a crew and the logistics overhead is cost prohibitive, my 170's and 200a are on their way.

I could count many reasons why I wouldn't go back to a shoulder mount. But I have even more reasons for why others should STAY with a shoulder mount. It really all depends.

For my work, I continue to look forward to taking technological advancements that originate in larger cameras as they make their way into smaller ones.

In the meantime you won't see me running down to buy a Red or piling parts onto a DSLR kit. In fact another HPX170 and a couple 64GB cards will be on their way shortly.

I hope to see many more great big cameras and benefit from the technology trickle down when I get my future HPX-170 with AVC-Intra capability!

Long live the shoulder mount!!!!
 
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I don't think "they" are making more shoulder-mount cameras, if you take into account consumer market as well. In the times of VHS-C and Video8 all consumer cameras were shoulder mount, case in point is awesome Marty McFly's JVC camcorder. Do they make consumer camcorders in this form-factor now? Oh, yeah, the HD1000 and the HMC70, but these are lame boxes of plastic attached to a consumer lens/chip with no pro controls whatsoever (the HMC70 has XLR input, yay!). I really wonder what is inside these big boxes: a fan? a super-duper battery? or just air? The McFly's camcorder was packed with stuff, the tape transport took like half of the body, but the HMC70 writes on a tiny memory card, so what is inside the freaking box? Sorry for digressing.
 
Just to make it clear I was never stating that a shoulder mount camera is right for every job, I just know that the professional choice is always going to be a shoulder mount for the real deal gigs. There are places for an HVX200 in reality TV which is pretty much taking over our tv's these days. But that would never affect the use of shoulder mounted.

Also to "Cranky" the point isn't what was in thos "boxes" believe me I know exactly whats in them, hardly anything, but the fact that it is made to go on your shoulder attests to the fact that someone realized how important it is to have it be shoulder mounted. Even if the thing hardly weighs anything, they noticed that it is much more of a professional way to shoot by going shoulder mounted than on the hand. Most of the cameras that are the really low end but shoulder mounted, could be beat out by cameras that are 1/4 of their size. BUT their price is just the same if not higher just because of one simple thing its shoulder mounted. They would never be able to charge what they do for a HMC70 if it wasn't shoulder mounted, but thats the whole point. It is!

I like the RED One, I think its just like having a 35mm camera without the film mag. It has nice weight and is made to work just like a film camera would, but these new scarlet ideas where it has a little box, a big fat lens, and not much else is quite a ridiculous looking setup to me. But that's why RED made it possible to do pretty much WHATEVER you wanted with it, you can make it big or small. The cameras that i am talking about are just limited with built in lenses that are crap, and small.

Good glass has large elements, you are never going to be able to change that. They need light, and great amounts of it for super speeds, the lenses alone are 5lbs and up. I am in the middle of checking out some Fuji 2/3'' prime lenses and they are very nice, I would love to see someone argue that they would be better using the little built in lens on an hm100 instead of a 2/3'' shoulder mounted camera with primes.

I will never argue that there's a tool for every job, but never forget, there is always more than one tool to get the job done sometimes. Sure I can shoot a music video with an HVX200 and a 35mm adapter (I've been hired way too many times for that exact same setup), but I would have a way better outcome in quality if I shot that with a Varicam 2700 with pro35 and arri super speeds. Its all about budget. My only problem with the guys that talk down about a shoulder mounted camera, is that they aren't shooting at the same level as the ones using these actual cameras. And the ones that are, are usually going smaller because they need smaller due to size reasons (tv shows filmed on boats, planes, small spaces, reality, ect...) so they are totally justified, but I hardly ever see them knock the big boys, because they usually know better than to argue the fact that something is a tool and is an amazing tool and the right tool for many pro applications.

If I sound heated lately with these topics its because I honestly am, and I mean to harm to anyone on the forum who reads them, but I am way to passionate to read these guys with EX-1's and such and tell me "wow why would anyone use a $50,000 camera when the EX-1's footage looks amazing" - thats a quote that I am sick of reading. They are not comparing apples to even anything CLOSE to apples. They are comparing apples to planets. They cost that for a reason there is actually a HUGE difference in the images, just because they dont have the eyes to see the difference doesnt mean you should knock it. I have seen some very nice EX-1 raw footage and it was nice and all, but I have seen RAW HPX 500, 2700, RED, and other footage that will pretty much put to sleep any EX-1 in all arenas. These guys (or gals) are mostly reviewing stuff on THE WEB with compression to hell, and all kinds of things, sure if you look at some 2700 footage in HD on vimeo it looks pretty much the same as an EX-1 under the same conditions. heck so would RED.

If you guys have followed my posts, you have noticed that I had put up a special place on our servers to people can view RAW and ProRes footage for cameras I was talking about, thats because I want to be FAIR and get REAL info out there. NOT comparing compressed footage, or footage that has been ingested and exported from an NLE. There is just no comparing the detail, signal to noise ratio, color space, and many other factors that the shoulder mounted cameras have over the handheld ones. I do not want to talk down about the smaller cameras, some of them shoot amazing footage for their size, but you have to be fair when comparing.

To reply to the fact that everything was shoulder mount in the VHS times, yeah thats true, but when things went to Hi8 and all the other small formats what happened??? EVERYTHING went smaller except for the professional betacams which stayed their size. So then you had all these cameras trying to be smaller. It isnt until shooting formats changed that people realized the importance of shoulder mounted cameras again, and then the started making them larger, some just for the fact of being able to put on your shoulder (HCM70U). They could easily make that camera handheld, but then ask yourself, why isn't it? I think the answer presents itself.

Another topic I wanted to bring up before about the bigger shoulder mounted cameras is durability, OHHHH BOY what a world of difference you're going to get from the little guys to be the big ones. I have seen varicams that have been dropped out of cars, crushed, rained on, punched, been in sandstorms, high moisture, super heat, super cold, and they have held onto life through it all. They can take a beating and come back for more. The pure fact that handhelds are smaller subjects them to problems with durability, the shock of a hit isnt distributed over the whole of a body that was made to take punishment, instead it takes the hit directly to everything in the camera and the cheap buttons and plastic thin parts that you will never find on a big boy. They are simply just built for a pro world of "anything can happen" I know some news guys who havent used a bag in years, they just put the strap right on the camera and use the camera as its own bag. Guys in the jungle traveling through hell heat and muck taking the cameras just with a strap and a lens cap. I have bought Nikon top of the line cameras my whole life, I always had the best line because of only 2 reason... The shutter response time was faster than my nervous system, so I'd never miss a shot, and 2 i could use the camera as a hammer if I needed to, and nothing would happen to it. My Nikon F5 and D2X was with me in the marsh lands in Florida while shooting wildlife, I'll tell you this the Nikons got beat up more than I would have let a Panasonic tough book take, and there wasn't if a thought in my mind that anything would have gone wrong with the camera. This goes the same for the shoulder mounted cameras. They are made to last a long time and take a beating. The little guys aren't.

I could go on and on about how different they are but I think you've all stopped reading by then and fallen asleep. I wont compare my cameras to yours, so please don't knock it when you dont know anything about it.

And again this rant was actually not about anyone who has even respond to this, It is just here for when future people google this stuff, maybe it will open up their eyes and stop them from bashing like they do from time to time. Even the "pros" on some forums knock the big cameras, I say if you're a pro you arent knocking any camera for its size. You should only be knocking it for its footage. And boy oh boy is there a world of a difference in the footage.

Thanks for reading my angry cameraman rant, but I hope it keeps the younger guys out there just starting out from thinking "oh well theres no difference" because there is not even a question of how much difference there really is. The film guys laugh at us all, because we are the digital guys and are still trying to get where film was 30 years ago. So before anyone does the Knocking, remember there's always someone better than you, and always a better tool as well.

wow that was long hahahaha goodnight!
 
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Hey Giuseppe, I really do understand you and I'm absolutely fine with your very open way to talk. I've just been asking 'cause I have to buy one more Camera this week after a couple of experiences with non shoulder mounted and standard 'heavy' should mounted shoulder Camcorders I' really far away from a 'own opinion'

The thing is I always went with Sony, Digi Beta to HDCAM an especially XDCAM EX at least. The reason I changed to Panasonic was just this Mpeg2 long gop codec. We're not only working for Industry, we're also working for HD Broadcasters and so i decided to go for AVCIntra 100 (One day after my order the EXes went to Discovery HD silver status). The HPX301 was my choice but as I saw the first footage I was really shocked! Compared to one of our EX Models the details and noise were... you know what I mean. After a couple of days training I became used to that camera and the pictures became better. What I wanna say is just that there are so many functions (like that not visible white peaking) on that camera that are far away from any logic thinking.

So why should I use a bigger Camcorder, which is making me problems in small ares, with less logic functions, a support worse it can't be and a 1/3 chip instead of a cheaper, more logic and better picture producing EX1(r) for example?

10 bit color space doesn't even matter if the picture itself is not good enough. Now back to the topic. My decision felt cause of the shoulder mounted body and the avcintra coded but seen from the actual point of stand... I've done much better pictures with a 'handheld' Camcorder like the EX1 or 3...
 
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While I agree about shoulder cams are not going anywhere, I also have used a HM100 on a recent shoot in a situation that a shoulder mount couldn't handle (inside a hearse). Plus, I'm 6'2" and sometimes to tall for the subject if I'm using a shoulder mount cam.
Probably why I still like and use my JVC HD100. Great as a shoulder cam, but light enough to go hand held when needed. To bad the new HM700 makes lousy video compared to other cams out there today.
 
maxemanuel said:
Hey Giuseppe, I really do understand you and I'm absolutely fine with your very open way to talk. I've just been asking 'cause I have to buy one more Camera this week after a couple of experiences with non shoulder mounted and standard 'heavy' should mounted shoulder Camcorders I' really far away from a 'own opinion'

The thing is I always went with Sony, Digi Beta to HDCAM an especially XDCAM EX at least. The reason I changed to Panasonic was just this Mpeg2 long gop codec. We're not only working for Industry, we're also working for HD Broadcasters and so i decided to go for AVCIntra 100 (One day after my order the EXes went to Discovery HD silver status). The HPX301 was my choice but as I saw the first footage I was really shocked! Compared to one of our EX Models the details and noise were... you know what I mean. After a couple of days training I became used to that camera and the pictures became better. What I wanna say is just that there are so many functions (like that not visible white peaking) on that camera that are far away from any logic thinking.

If you can't see the peaking in a Sony you can just pull up the gain and change the color. There is non like that in the 301. On Panasonic Blog you'll get always nice answerer from Jaume and the rest if you're fine with the camera and full of good words... As soon as you've got problems there is no more answer coming! I'm not the only one who is in there waiting for respond since weeks! Others with congratulations to that product are getting answered within hours... That really pissed me of Panasonic!

So why should I use a bigger Camcorder, which is making me problems in small ares, with less logic functions, a support worse it can't be and a 1/3 chip instead of a cheaper, more logic and better picture producing EX1(r) for example?

10 bit color space doesn't even matter if the picture itself is not good enough. Now back to the topic. My decision felt cause of the shoulder mounted body and the avcintra coded but seen from the actual point of stand... I've done much better pictures with a 'handheld' Camcorder like the EX1 or 3...
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You are very right, 10bits of mess is still just a highly in depth capture of mess. I think we are right in between the spaces that are about to get filled within the next 2 years. The 8-10k pro range really only has 1 camera that is actually professional at what it does and thats the HPX500, you cannot beat it for the price, super great in low light, CCD's so no skew, super low noise, ect, ect... I was very excited about the 300 until I saw the reality behind the mask.

I think its so hard to beat that price range because you have to give up so much just to make it 10k or under, you really compromise a lot. I would LOVE to see JVC make a full size ENG size camera again. Or maybe Ikegami come out from left field and make a CCD competitor to the HPX300 I have a feeling they are too busy with studio cameras to care about the little guys though. Canon pretty much went the way of the dodo for cameras, they are all Lenses and DSLR now.
 
Right, butt still I'll keep my HPX301 and I do definitely like it more than any other XDCAM EX Camera. In my opinion AVCIntra 100 is much better than any XCAM EX Mpeg-2 Long Gop - BUT, at least the final result is the only important thing and if I compare the shots I did with the EX1 to the shots of my HPX301 - the EX1 shots are far better than these of the 301! So for my next Camera I need right now what should I do? Invest 12K for another 301 or should I really do the step 'back' to an EX1R...

By the way, the HPX301 is much more expensive than 8-10k with all the needed features: HPX301 + 2x AB HC Batteries + AB Charger + Sennheiser EK3241 + Pana Mic... All together more than 12.000€
 
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You are lucky, I even payed 14000 euro for about the same setup.

maxemanuel said:
Right, butt still I'll keep my HPX301 and I do definitely like it more than any other XDCAM EX Camera. In my opinion AVCIntra 100 is much better than any XCAM EX Mpeg-2 Long Gop - BUT, at least the final result is the only important thing and if I compare the shots I did with the EX1 to the shots of my HPX301 - the EX1 shots are far better than these of the 301! So for my next Camera I need right now what should I do? Invest 12K for another 301 or should I really do the step 'back' to an EX1R...

By the way, the HPX301 is much more expensive than 8-10k with all the needed features: HPX301 + 2x AB HC Batteries + AB Charger + Sennheiser EK3241 + Pana Mic... All together more than 12.000€
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Hi Max:
Good to read you again.
I was not aware there was one single answer pending in our videoblog in our European Web (www.panasonic-broadcast.com). Actually there was one from an "unhappy user" last week that I couldnt answer as my father passed away last Tuesday 27th and I was out the whole last week.
In any case, I apreciate that in case there is ONE SINGLE answer pending, please, note it to us.
Taking this oportunity I want to re-commit that we answer every single question (good or bad) and we disclose what we can disclose (sometimes I assume you can respect we have certain degree of confidentiality, not towards users but towards competitors and we can't distiguish them just with a hashtag or user name).
Finally, I invite all users to visit our web and confirm my words (date for answers is shown).
;-)
Regards

Jaume Rey
Director
Panasonic Professional & Broadcast IT Systems Europe
 
Hey Jaume, nice to read you too. I really appreciate your open answer and I'm sorry about your father, I didn't Know. I wasn't able to answer earlier 'cause I just came back from the funeral of my Grandfather. So in some strange way we've been both into a similar situation.

Once again sorry for my hard words I was just in front of my new Cam with problems but no help out of the Blog. Finaly I fixed it myself and I'm fine with it.

Best Regards, Max
 
Shoulder cameras - in my book - are (mostly) a ENG thing.
If you do narrative or even industrial/commercial work you usually have a tripod or some other kind of camera support.

There are only a few scenarios I can imagine, where someone want to grab a camera, put it on his shoulder or in his hand an run around with it.

Sometimes in extremely tight situations (but how often do you have that) or for dramatical (point of view) reasons.

So if you don´t have to impress a client with a big form factor - and much of them are more impressed by an old Betacam than with something that looks like the famaly camcorder the have at home - the size does not really mater.

Frank

P.S. Wilkommen hier im Forum Max. Schön einen weiteren Bayern hier zu haben ;-)
 
One reason I love the shoulder mount camera over an EX-1 or similar - is the ease of use. With a light powered by the Anton Bauer battery, and a wireless built in, I'm not tethered to anything. With a small cam, I have to use a battery belt to power the light and another tether to put the wireless receiver on my belt. I can be up and running with my big camera very quickly, and I'm never tired even after holding it for long periods. I will always prefer a shoulder camera - unless it's too heavy. My old DSR-450 with a very wide lens was just too heavy on my shoulder.
 
Hi Max:
Thanks for your words and I'm sorry about your Grandfather.
I feel better now if you fix it, but next time please, don't suffer in silence: contact our team in Germany. They would be extremely happy to help you.
Keep in touch
Jaume
 
Tanks Jaume, I'll go for german support next time and sorry again :)

Frank, schön auch einen 'nahen' Kollegen hier im Forum zu wissen ;) Wo genau bis du denn? I'm thinking about buying a cineform HD Recorder for my camera and I've seen your Cinedeck HD article.
Would you say that this one is pretty good for it's price or would you say go for something else? My budget limit is set at about 3k € in this area.

Cheers, Max
 
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