Editing 30p footage in Vegas

Can you describe the problems you're having? There shouldn't be any problem editing 30p footage in Vegas.
 
Inoran, how did you create your project preferences? There is a 30p template in the choices of Vegas 5/6.
 
I have the latest version of vegas 6 and there is no 30p template. there is a HD 720 30p template but no NTSC 30p. when ever i play back the footage, it skips and lags really bad. the audio will be playing while the video stays on the first frame randomly skips around. this is similar to when you open 24p footage on a 60i project, but much much worse. I even tried manually changing the framerate settings to 30 frames, but the problem remains. :(
 
Take the project settings, put them at 29.97, then fields should be set to none, and deinterlace should be set to blend, unless you've got lots of motion, then set to interpolate.
 
Actually, thinking about this more, you'd want to use "blend" all the time. If you're deinterlacing 60i, using "blend" for little motion and "interpolate" for more motion is the right way to go, because 60i isn't comprised of frames; it's comprised of fields, and each field is a separate moment in time. However, 30p, even though it's written to tape as 60i, is comprised of frames SPLIT into fields. "Blend" takes field A and field B and combines them into a full frame, which is what you want. "Interpolate" takes a single field and makes a whole frame out of it. Now, you can do that, but you'll be sacrificing up to 50% of your resolution if you do.
 
Hmm... this is an odd thing. Well I guess that's one area where I never had an issue in Premiere.

You could just bring in 30p footage with no fields and that was the end of it. All it took was a normal 29.97 timeline and click one pull-down for fields... then you could choose upper first, lower first, or none. So it was just one quick selection. If you wanted to do it right then you could bring the footage in as 30p... but in my experience it never mattered. Maybe my NLE was haunted.

I'm glad I checked this thread again because I shoot in 30p MOST of the time. The zombie thing was the first time I did 24p for a project rather then just screwing around... and I still think 30p is more valuable. 30p is fluid without looking like video. If this had been a genuine problem I'd have been worried. Thankfully it wasn't. When I first saw this thread I figured it was a guy from Adobe trying to counter my other thread!:grin:

Between DSE and DJ you almost gotta' go Vegas. This thread is further proof of the incredible resource we have here. I can hardly wait to try out some Celluloid!
 
Vegas is the same way. Just bring in 30p footage to a 30p project. but it sounds like there are other issues at play?
I've brought in a lot of 30p media to Vegas via the JVC. No problems at all.
 
You can edit 30p on any timeline, just like 24p or 60i. If you do nothing and drop it onto a 60i timeline, it'll still look like 30p and you don't have to do anything in particular. What Spot recommends above is if you want to make it true progressive.
 
David Jimerson said:
Actually, thinking about this more, you'd want to use "blend" all the time. If you're deinterlacing 60i, using "blend" for little motion and "interpolate" for more motion is the right way to go, because 60i isn't comprised of frames; it's comprised of fields, and each field is a separate moment in time. However, 30p, even though it's written to tape as 60i, is comprised of frames SPLIT into fields. "Blend" takes field A and field B and combines them into a full frame, which is what you want. "Interpolate" takes a single field and makes a whole frame out of it. Now, you can do that, but you'll be sacrificing up to 50% of your resolution if you do.
Click to expand...

Thank you! I've never seen a better summary of what the deinterlacing options actually do to the footage. I shoot in 24pA and just use the template, but I always wondered what those other options did for interlaced footage. Thanks! I love this forum.
 
Quick Question.

Can 30P be transfered to 35mm for proyection? Where would those extra 6 frames go?

I'm having issues with something I recoreded in a "flash motion" digital effect that looks to be 30fps (p/i) on a sony cam - I think its 30i though... confused.

Sorry to extend the thread.
 
cineasta_dom said:
Quick Question.

Can 30P be transfered to 35mm for proyection? Where would those extra 6 frames go?

I'm having issues with something I recoreded in a "flash motion" digital effect that looks to be 30fps (p/i) on a sony cam - I think its 30i though... confused.

Sorry to extend the thread.
Click to expand...

Yes. In fact, most film-out houses prefer that you be 60i, but they'll take 30p or better yet, 60p (if you have that option, few do) and they correctly blend the frames when they output the file. The main reason they prefer it, is because they've all spent huge wads on building systems that can properly take 60i and convert it to 24p, whereas 23.976 isn't quite as easy or straightforward for them to do.
 
No film transfer house that I know of will accept 30p. 23.976 is preferable in all cases, and 60i/50i/25p can all be made to work quite well. But 30p is a big no-no for film transfer.

23.976 is the easiest format to transfer because it's a direct frame-for-frame transfer, no blending or motion correction necessary at all.
 
For further clarification, here's what DVFilm says about transferring 30P to film, taken from their FAQ page at: http://www.dvfilm.com/faq.htm

"NTSC frame mode is a definite no-no, 30P cannot be converted to 24P without a tremendous effort and significant extra cost."

"Do NOT use the JVC HD-1. The JVC's 16:9 HDTV (720p30) format is 30 frames/sec progressive-scan and cannot be converted to 24 frames/sec. (Normal interlaced NTSC is 60 fields/sec and is easily converted to 24, but 30P formats have only 30 motion samples per second and no smooth conversion to 24 is possible)."

"For NTSC, use interlaced mode and 1/60th sec shutter speed. For PAL cameras, use interlaced mode at 1/50th sec shutter speed. For 24P cameras like the DVX100, click here for suggested settings or here for the Canon XL-2. Do not use Canon XL-1 NTSC "Frame Mode" or 30P. Do not use the "Cineframe" modes on the Sony FX1 or Z1U. Click here for Sony FX1 or Z1U settings."

For the 24p-capable XL2 and DVX they recommend using 24p mode. For PAL XL2 and DVX, they recommend using 25p. For the US FX1 they recommend using 60i; for the European FX1 or the Sony Z1 they recommend using 50i.
 
Soho Film, (who we've used on 4 occasions) and Digital Film Group both do 30p transfers. I don't know about DV Film, never used em', but have found some of their arguments about color correction and film looks to be wanting. DFG is arguably one of the most advanced transfer houses in the world.

You might want to contact James Tocher directly. He'll likely tell you that shooting 50i or 60i is their preferred framerate, with 50i being the easiest to deal with.
Of all the shots Sony transferred to film, the 50i material was by far preferable, but the CF30 footage was also very impressive. Less obviously, the CF24 mode footage didn't look great. Cadence was fine, because pulldown was properly removed, but it just didn't feel right.
More worth it, is spending the couple hundred bucks that many film houses charge (some are free) to test your footage. The problem then becomes, finding a SMPTE calibrated theatre to view your test footage on.
 
Fascinating -- I've never heard any place recommend or even admit that they could try to cope with 30p to film.

I looked through DFG's website for shooting recommendations on the Z1 and they specifically recommended against CF24 and CF25 both, and didn't even mention CF30 at all; they pretty much said like you did, stick to 50i or 60i. Are you sure they did CF30 footage? Obviously not having been there I can't know one way or the other, but I'd bet some cash that if what you saw looked impressive, it would have been from CF25 and not from CF30.

I'll write to James and ask him -- that would be some startling news if they're able to get decent results from 30p.

And yes, by all means run some tests before committing to any transfer house -- that is sage advice!
 
Digital Film Group is up here.. glad to know James reputation is so great down there.
he did the film out for Art history back in the day for the Whistler film festival.

Anyways.. James himself warns against shooting at 30p on the JVC.. well 30p in general.
its not a pretty format to push to film.
 
Jarred Land said:
Digital Film Group is up here.. glad to know James reputation is so great down there.
he did the film out for Art history back in the day for the Whistler film festival.

Anyways.. James himself warns against shooting at 30p on the JVC.. well 30p in general.
its not a pretty format to push to film.
Click to expand...

James has a great rep down here. They do pretty well all the LDS films that are starting to come out of Utah, which are turning out pretty big. They also did Napoleon Dynamite, which is the result of the great work they do for the LDS community, much of which is being shot on FW900's.

He spoke at the TIFF (Toronto International Film Fest) and we chatted at length about the 30p issue, because i've always believed as Barry commented; 30p can't be turned into 24p. While not optimal by any stretch, they're making it work because they have to. One thing not mentioned in this thread is that I was aware the footage had already been captured without opportunity for a re-shoot, which is why my answer is what it is. However, if you're PLANNING a shoot rather than dealing with existing footage (which in this case is really 15fps progressive) then you want to shoot 50i for best film-out, as Barry and others have recommended.
Sony did a bunch of film-out tests, of which I've seen them all, I believe, and the 30p stuff wasn't nearly what I thought it was going to be. I wish they'd shown this at NAB, but they were not able to procure a good venue to display the film out.
We've got a film-out test coming up next month with all three HDV cams having shot the same subject at identical settings on the same mount, at various framerates, and for giggles, we included CF 24, CF25, and CF30. I want to see if our post-work in Vegas made these files as film-ready as the monitor would indicate. For the low test-cost, it'll be worth it. In our case, we've got a theatre that gives us free access to the projectors in exchange for us doing short slideshows for local advertisers. With Ultimate S, it takes us about 10 minutes plus render time to 1440 x 1080 60p to output these files once a month, so it's well worth the time for us. The theatre pays for the film out. They find it cheaper and easier than dealing with projectors and DVD player because the quality was so horrible when shot up on the film screen. So, while I've never done a 90 minute feature to film transfer, we've probably done at least 80 hours of film-tranferred footage. Unfortunately, it's nowhere near as easy to get right/good as many folks would have you believe on the first outing. One suggestion I'd make to anyone planning on doing film-out for an indy feature, is to shoot a variety of related footage with careful logging, and then have it transferred. A couple hundred bucks could easily save you tens of thousands later on.
 
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