Ease of focusing the 4 contenders?

V

Vlad

New member
Which of the "Big 4" 1/3in cams is the easiest for the operator to get precise focus with, especially when handheld? In other words, without the help of a field monitor, but just by eye while shooting?

While Barry has posted well about the differences in feel of manipulating each camera's manual focus (or lack thereof), I'm more interested in hearing feedback from users about how well each of the cams VF's/LCD's + their focusing aides such as peaking or central area enlargement buttons, actually work in practice.

And I mean confidence in tight focus that's verified later either in projection, or on a really good production monitor, or enlarged enough on the mac to tell that sharpness could hold up to film blow-up.

I wouldn't exclude their AF systems from the discussion, either.

-1st time poster here. I've read Many comments on this forum since finding it the other day, hope it stays a good source of objective info as all these units' pros and cons are shaken out.
 
Nothing beats a true manual lens for focusing. The tactile response is realtime and "" power steering lenses " are not the same.

So in order is:

1. HD100 - manual lens-- XLH1 Manual 16x or 14x lens...

2. HVX200- Free spinner lens- This lens is tack sharp too as well. The HVX takes second place over the H1 20x because is has a true zoom lens control. Control feeling is good with the HVX lens too...

3. XLH1 Free spinner lens. This lens is tack sharp! It can resolve in tests from the germans over 800 lines from a H1 signal. I personally hate spinner lenses, so the H1 should be outfitted with the 16x manual to exploit all that the H1 can offer IMHO...


Michael Pappas
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site

CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }


XLH1 and HVX200 frame grabs and news here:
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms

http://www.PappasArts.com
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
 
The HVX and the HD100 are a step above the Z1, and all three of them are fifty steps above the Canon in terms of getting accurate manual focus without a monitor.

As long as the HD100 has adequate light and contrast so its "focus assist" feature works, it works very well indeed. And the HVX has peaking and extremely precise focus ring and a magnified focus feature that works even while recording. I'd say the HVX has the best manual focusing system for getting absolutely accurate manual focus under all conditions. The Z1 and Canon also have a magnified focus feature but it doesn't work while recording so if your subject moves during the shot, you're pretty much on your own with no assist (other than peaking).

The HD100 has stronger peaking and the excellent colored focus assist function, but no magnification possible. And no autofocus to double-check yourself with. But it does have a long telephoto so you can zoom in and get very very shallow DOF, which helps you get a precise focus, which you can then zoom out and shoot -- but you'd better be 100% certain that your backfocus is adjusted absolutely correctly!

Same holds for the Canon -- you can zoom in very very tightly and narrow your DOF to inches (or less) and focus sharply that way, if only the focus ring would comply. Might be better to just zoom in and hold down the "push auto" button, which would at least eliminate the harrowing stress of trying to use that focus ring! :laugh: Again, you'd have to know that your backfocus is absolutely spot-on to use this technique, but if it is, this can really help.

In a subjective opinion, rated on a scale of 1 to 100 (100 being best), as far as how easy and confidence-inspiring it is to focus with each system without a monitor present, I'd say:
HVX: 100
HD100: 97
Z1: 90 (as long as the subject isn't moving too much)
XLH1: 40 (as long as the subject doesn't move to & fro; drops to about 5 if the subject is moving to & fro)

Others will disagree, perhaps vehemently, but that's my experience. Best thing to do is go into a store that has 'em and try 'em for yourself.
 
Barry,

Your numbers are fine,

however drop the free spinner 20x of the XLH1 and put the 16x or 14x manual lens and you surpass the HVX200-Z1u free spinners.

Here you would be gaining on the XLH1 or HD100 with overall lens control, features and tactile performance in accuracy.

However I did not like the performance of the HD100 film out, where as the HVX film out was awesome looking...

The HVX200 gains above the Z1u and Canons 20x free spinner lens in offering a true cam driven zoom control. That is sweet.

As for VF feed back; none are perfect, but this is subjective. I feel the HVX200 VF is to small. The magnify feature works awesome though.

The H1 VF is good, it gets knocked to much. When you compare these VF's to a Cinealta or the Panavision Genesis HD camera VF they all are equal feeling in the lack of in a perspective like that. There all within a few clicks of one another.



Michael Pappas
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site

CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }


XLH1 and HVX200 frame grabs and news here:
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms

http://www.PappasArts.com
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
 
Well, yeah, but that lens isn't high-def. Granted it does a surprisingly good job for a standard-def lens, but there isn't an optional manual high-def lens for the XLH1 yet.

And you still can't use magnified focus while recording, and you still have to look through that pixellated viewfinder.

Putting a manual focus lens on the Canon would solve 80% of its focus issue, yes.
 
At the expense of an image stabilizer. And of course no Canon MF lens has wide angle capability.
 
Image stabilizer. Evin, I can't remeber that last film I been conected to that used one. That's more of a video thing unless it's a special shot from a helicopter etc like wise..

It's wide, but not real wide like the HVX . However HVX users are going to buy wide angle adapters to make it wider, so people will do the same for the H1. Buy adapeters. Then they will have wide and manual focus.....

Same difference...

However the H1 has wide lenses coming. You will be able to swap out.

There all good cameras in the end......
 
If you do any handheld camera work you know how much the OIS can help. The XL & the HD100 are shoulder mount so it's a little less of an issue.
 
I love the 16X manual and use it often but people need to stop slamming the 20X OIS. It is a great lens but has a learning curve. Just as you would practice a move and make marks to rack/pull a focus, you can make digital marks with the Canon. No different end result, no extra time , just a different way of doing it. Most people slamming the Canon lens havent bothered to even TRY this feature, much less master it. I shot an entire doc on the OIS lens of the XL series and did every focus move manually on the fly...

As for the 16X manual? It is not rated as HD but it resolves well, equal if not better than the stock HVX...

Which is easier to focus out of the box? The HVX for sure, shorter lens and great focus assist.


ash =o)



PS Barry, OT but what is the word from Panny on the rez? I have had the same experience as you... it LOOKS like it is higher than the charts say... weird...
 
The Sony has the best-spec'd LCD; which one has the nicest VF -particularly in terms of clarity, to help the image "snap" into focus? (for as much "snap" as these undersized so-so finders will allow...)

I think these cams will get handheld, and be shot verité-style, often. At those times the one w/any edge in its viewing system -a little larger/sharper/better contrast- wins.
Because if you can't keep it in focus, all the res in the world does you no good. And when projected large, an error in focus will make Any of the other shortcomings of these cameras seem trivial.

Also, it's worth mentioning the Z1 shot transition feature, which could sometimes also make the difference for the solo operator.

ps- Michael, what aspect of the HD100's film-out was bad - visible color fringing?
 
Oh great, more FUD about the Canon. Yes, I would like to have a manual lens, but the 20x is pretty nice for a free spinner. The EVF with peaking works fine for me.

Take a look at a few clips. These were all manual operation with peaking focus assist.

www.homepage.mac.com/mrbarlowelton
 
Barry_Green said:
and you still have to look through that pixellated viewfinder.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, the HVX has a stunning HD VF. Can't we all agree that all of the cameras fall well short in this dept.? The HVX is low rez AND 4x3, which is problematic in it's own right.
 
Elton said:
Oh yeah, the HVX has a stunning HD VF. Can't we all agree that all of the cameras fall well short in this dept.? The HVX is low rez AND 4x3, which is problematic in it's own right.
Click to expand...

You mean the HVX viewfinder, right? Because if you mean the HVX you're wrong... :angry:
It's 16x9 :grin:
 
If that's true, I apologize. I spent a very short time with the HVX a couple days ago. I am not an HVX basher, I think it's a wonderful camera and want one badly, but I think the FUD that gets slung around about the H1 is a bit ridiculous at times.

Aren't most people shooting with the LCD anyway? Which is better to use for critical eyeball focusing?
 
PappasArts said:
However I did not like the performance of the HD100 film out, where as the HVX film out was awesome looking...
Click to expand...

I dunno how much stock I'd put in that particular film out. The guy GLUED together his own lens solution headed into the the jungle and hopped on a raft with one of the first units off the line and no real instructions on how to optimize for a film out. Someone has noted that the JVC "Film Out" setting actually does the exact wrong thing for a good film out.

So there are some pretty big caveats you need to include before implying the HD100 can't do a good film out. If it truly performed as Adam Wilt said it did there's no reason a well planned film out wouldn't be fine.
 
I too hate the canon lens.. and yes I had one.. and yes it stinks. Having to figure out work arounds is not my idea of a good product. THe lack of an LCD is troubling and the viewfinder seemed impossible to focus with.
 
Shot Apollo ono and US Speed Skating team in Olympic tune-up last night.
Focusing by eye half the time and with the focus assist the other half.
40 mins of footage and it's all in perfect focus.
At ice level tracking this type of speed is a challenge in SD, but I'd just throw it into focus assist, make sure I saw red and let it go.
It's really a pretty amazing feature.
Also flawless just using the nice VF.

Hey Barry you should see the nightime shots outside the Olympic center in the falling snow...lots of scenes, not a shred of SSE and really clean never beyond 3db.
I'm putting up some of the US Team and outdoor footage tonight.
 
joelnet said:
I dunno how much stock I'd put in that particular film out. The guy GLUED together his own lens solution headed into the the jungle and hopped on a raft with one of the first units off the line and no real instructions on how to optimize for a film out. Someone has noted that the JVC "Film Out" setting actually does the exact wrong thing for a good film out.

So there are some pretty big caveats you need to include before implying the HD100 can't do a good film out. If it truly performed as Adam Wilt said it did there's no reason a well planned film out wouldn't be fine.
Click to expand...


Hey I don't know if anyone's seen what this camera can do but our early work is certainly as sharp as anything you've seen from the HVX or Canon...better detail than most of the footage I've seen posted so far, so I have a hard time imagining it wouldn't be as good or better for film out than either.
 
Evin,

At DVexpo I asked you question about Back Focus issues that on some camcorders ( small ones ) go slighty off on wide shots. You mentioned to me that the HVX200 never looses back focus because of how the HVX focuses? Someone asked me this however I was not sure what you told me. I belive you said the front element doesn't move but the ccd is shifted for focus. Anyways can you explain that again..

If you know to Barry, you can chime in.....


Thanks.
 
Cool Jim, let us know when the footage is up! I want to see that!


Pappas

jimagine said:
Shot Apollo ono and US Speed Skating team in Olympic tune-up last night.
Focusing by eye half the time and with the focus assist the other half.
40 mins of footage and it's all in perfect focus.
At ice level tracking this type of speed is a challenge in SD, but I'd just throw it into focus assist, make sure I saw red and let it go.
It's really a pretty amazing feature.
Also flawless just using the nice VF.

Hey Barry you should see the nightime shots outside the Olympic center in the falling snow...lots of scenes, not a shred of SSE and really clean never beyond 3db.
I'm putting up some of the US Team and outdoor footage tonight.
Click to expand...
 
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