Dynamic Range Stretch

[jeromeOlivier]

From what I've read so far, this camera seems pretty sweet. I still have a question regarding one feature and also a general request for this camera.

First, the question: In the manual for the Panasonic AG-HMC150, it states under the dynamic range stretch section, "Not available (grayed out) under settings other than 60i/60P."

This means dynamic range stretch (i.e. cinelike gamma) is unavailable at 24fps -- a real shame. Will the same hold true for the AG-AF100?

Second, the request: I think it's only fair to ask Panasonic to reconsider the 8bit HDMI/HD-SDI out limitation and permit 10bit. In post, the more info you have, the better. If people are going to invest over $2,000 in a secondary recorder to bypass the H264 4:2:0 compression, I think they deserve 10bit 4:2:2. Don't you?

 

[Nektonic]

Second, the request: I think it's only fair to ask Panasonic to reconsider the 8bit HDMI/HD-SDI out limitation and permit 10bit. In post, the more info you have, the better. If people are going to invest over $2,000 in a secondary recorder to bypass the H264 4:2:0 compression, I think they deserve 10bit 4:2:2. Don't you?

Hopefully they'll decide to give us 10 Bit. Maybe Barry will bug them to do it?

 

[Barry_Green]

This means dynamic range stretch (i.e. cinelike gamma) is unavailable at 24fps -- a real shame. Will the same hold true for the AG-AF100?

First of all, DRS is nothing like cinelike gamma. It's a function that lowers the highlights and gains up the shadows. It's useful for certain scenarios where you can't control the lighting, but it causes noise and if you have the ability to control the lighting you will always be better off to turn off DRS and just light the scene. DRS is for times when you don't have the ability to control the light.

Secondly, DRS on the 150/170 is indeed limited to 60p/60i. But on the HMC80 and HMC40, it's available in all modes.

So, to answer your question: while we don't know what the final version will have, I can tell you that on the AF100 I was using, DRS was definitely available in 1080/24p mode.

If people are going to invest over $2,000 in a secondary recorder to bypass the H264 4:2:0 compression, I think they deserve 10bit 4:2:2. Don't you?

Of course we all want 10-bit. Whether that's something that they can or will be able to accomodate, remains to be seen. Sounds like at this point, they're going with 8.

 

[Homunculus]

I don't know. Ofcourse would prefer 10bit but it seems to be a major thing, not something for them to just lightly 'decide'. After all as Barry said most of the other top camcorders in 10-20,000$ price range are 8bit which is the 'standard' really, so for a 5k+ one to give us 10bit along with all the other stuff? It would be amazing yes but unfortunately some things in life are just too good to be true

 

[Steve Kahn]

After all as Barry said most of the other top camcorders in 10-20,000$ price range are 8bit which is the 'standard' really, so for a 5k+ one to give us 10bit along with all the other stuff?

I feel that is probably the only reason Panasonic would withhold 10bit. If you're paying >20k you better damn well have some reasons to show for it.

That being said I hope, and it is my intuition, that it will be an easy hack... I hope.

 

[Barry_Green]

Maybe Barry will bug them to do it?

Trust me, I have nagged excessively I made it very clear that I think it's important.

However, look -- they're building this thing to hit a certain price point. Inherently, they can't put in everything, obviously. So if it doesn't make it in, it doesn't make it in. The question I have is: how important is it? People screamed and ranted and raved for the HPX170 to be NTSC/PAL switchable; eventually Panasonic set up a factory upgrade program to provide that functionality. Did you get yours upgraded? Did I? Do you know anyone who did? Have we ever heard of any of the 65,000+ members of DVXUser who did? I think we heard of one, maybe two.

Point being -- there are things that we think are important, and things that turn out to be actually important. To me, 4:2:2 is far more important than 10-bit. We've had 8-bit formats for years; in fact, in HD, AVC-Intra is the *only* 10-bit format in common use, all other formats are 8-bit. But 4:2:2 doubles the chroma resolution in an image and makes a huge difference in chroma keying and in overall image pleasingness, moreso (I think) than 10-bit does. 10-bit provides excellent gradations in skies and flat areas, and does definitely help in pushing/pulling in post. But I've seen DVCPRO-HD (8-bit 4:2:2) and I've seen AVC-Intra50 (10-bit 4:2:0) and I think DVCPRO-HD beats AVCI-50 hands down.

I think 10-bit would be flat-out awesome; recording 10-bit to AVC-I or a Ki-Pro would be fantastic. And the feature we just greenlit is going to have a lot of post work. But I think the Nano will probably give us more than enough to work with, even if it is only 8-bit. Seriously, what's the alternative anyway? Shoot on an EX-1 with an adapter? How else would you get 10-bit? The Canons don't do 10-bit (at least the XLH1 and XHG1 don't). The JVC is 8-bit, isn't it? All the Panasonic AG cameras are 8-bit, except for the 370. So while there's a lot of clamor for 10-bit, I think people are forgetting that there's pretty much nothing out there in the affordable price bracket that provides 10-bit. The EX1/EX3 are the only ones I can think of in the sub-$10k price bracket that have 10-bit output.

 

[Steve Kahn]

Seriously, what's the alternative anyway? Shoot on an EX-1 with an adapter?

<jk>
What is this adapter of which you speak?
</jk>
.
.
.
Thanks for your knowledge and insight Barry. I think we all just want this cam to be perfect so we are apt to go a bit overboard. So looking forward to this camera! Ready to pre-order NOW. :2vrolijk_08:

 

[Barry_Green]

I do understand, trust me. It's so annoying to think that it's perfect and then to find <one little thing> that throws the whole apple cart upside down, but if you step back and think about it... what will you actually use, and what will be a significant impact on your workflow, and -- furthermore, what's the alternative? If not this, what else?

If you take that time to think it through, it really helps determine whether this is the right product for your particular circumstances.

 

[themagickite]

ikonoskop shoots 12 bit, they cost about 10k.

doesn't have HD-SDI out though, only HMDI and i don't know if it's 10 bit or even if the KI PRO will take 10 bit from HDMI.

 

[Homunculus]

it's a shame, it's true AF100 is not future proofing itself even for a year's worth because I'm pretty sure red Scarlet will most likely be 12bit if not 10bit or thereabouts and that will come next year (assuming) and will be 8-10k priced so AF100 will be old news faster than it thinks

 

[themagickite]

did someone say petition?

how bout a video petition? if we can get every member of this forum to produce a short video of themselves asking for this feature and post it on youtube... it would be really hilarious and it might just do the trick!

 

[jeromeOlivier]

I do understand, trust me. It's so annoying to think that it's perfect and then to find <one little thing> that throws the whole apple cart upside down, but if you step back and think about it... what will you actually use, and what will be a significant impact on your workflow, and -- furthermore, what's the alternative? If not this, what else?

If you take that time to think it through, it really helps determine whether this is the right product for your particular circumstances.

Barry,

You're absolutely right. Thanks for your thoughtful responses and perspective. For the price, this is the best thing going. RED's Scarlet or some other camera will eventually supersede it, but for the time being, this will probably be the best option in its price range this year.

I was not aware of the limitations of DRS and confused it with the "cinegamma" features. To be honest, the last time I shot with a Panasonic camera was in 2004~5ish on a DVX100A (amazing how quickly technology progresses and my waist thickens).

The AG-AF100 is Panasonic's first camera in a long time that raises my eyebrows and makes me go, "Ooh!"

I've been working a lot in 16bit comps in AE and, I admit, become something of a bitdepth snob. I hope to play with an AG-AF100 in the near future and finally get back into live action work.

Again, thank you for the perspective and all the best on your upcoming projects.

Sincerely,

Jerome Olivier

PS
True that for banding, all one has to do is apply 2 to 5 percent monochrome noise over the image. That pretty much always breaks up the artifact over skies and other smooth gradients.

Actually, just out of curiosity, do modern video cameras perform some sort of dithering to break up banding these days? Man, I need to study these things more...

 

[Noel Evans]

it's a shame, it's true AF100 is not future proofing itself even for a year's worth because I'm pretty sure red Scarlet will most likely be 12bit if not 10bit or thereabouts and that will come next year (assuming) and will be 8-10k priced so AF100 will be old news faster than it thinks

May I ask you to ask yourself a question, not looking for a forum reply. but - how will this effect you? As in when Scarlet does appear and lets say it does have 10bit out from the HD-SDI. How would that have an effect on you?

 

[jeromeOlivier]

did someone say petition?

Or maybe we should just let THE BITDEPTH DOG sick 'em...

Woof!

 

[themagickite]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!!!!

awesome

 

[SPZ]

Agree, Barry. I would really love to see intra 50mbits 4:2:2 on this camera. I don't even ask for 100mbits. Working with hvx200 4:2:2 files vs my 7D/5d's 4:2:0 I can really see the difference in color tones and color grading...

 

[Bandido]

it's a shame, it's true AF100 is not future proofing itself even for a year's worth because I'm pretty sure red Scarlet will most likely be 12bit if not 10bit or thereabouts and that will come next year (assuming) and will be 8-10k priced so AF100 will be old news faster than it thinks

As a consumer, I also wanted this camera to be perfect, but the reality is that Panasonic never promised this camera to be future-proof or that it will render "Obsolescence Obsolete", that is RED business model, not Panasonic or Sony or JVC for that matter. If they give us the perfect camera now, then, What are they going to show next year and the year after at the trade shows?. I want a AG-AF100, I want a Scarlet... I have no doubt of which one I am going to buy first. Thanks Panasonic for not making us wait forever.

 

[Sid W]

Trust me, I have nagged excessively I made it very clear that I think it's important.

However, look -- they're building this thing to hit a certain price point. Inherently, they can't put in everything, obviously. So if it doesn't make it in, it doesn't make it in. The question I have is: how important is it? People screamed and ranted and raved for the HPX170 to be NTSC/PAL switchable; eventually Panasonic set up a factory upgrade program to provide that functionality. Did you get yours upgraded? Did I? Do you know anyone who did? Have we ever heard of any of the 65,000+ members of DVXUser who did? I think we heard of one, maybe two.

Point being -- there are things that we think are important, and things that turn out to be actually important. To me, 4:2:2 is far more important than 10-bit. We've had 8-bit formats for years; in fact, in HD, AVC-Intra is the *only* 10-bit format in common use, all other formats are 8-bit. But 4:2:2 doubles the chroma resolution in an image and makes a huge difference in chroma keying and in overall image pleasingness, moreso (I think) than 10-bit does. 10-bit provides excellent gradations in skies and flat areas, and does definitely help in pushing/pulling in post. But I've seen DVCPRO-HD (8-bit 4:2:2) and I've seen AVC-Intra50 (10-bit 4:2:0) and I think DVCPRO-HD beats AVCI-50 hands down.

I think 10-bit would be flat-out awesome; recording 10-bit to AVC-I or a Ki-Pro would be fantastic. And the feature we just greenlit is going to have a lot of post work. But I think the Nano will probably give us more than enough to work with, even if it is only 8-bit. Seriously, what's the alternative anyway? Shoot on an EX-1 with an adapter? How else would you get 10-bit? The Canons don't do 10-bit (at least the XLH1 and XHG1 don't). The JVC is 8-bit, isn't it? All the Panasonic AG cameras are 8-bit, except for the 370. So while there's a lot of clamor for 10-bit, I think people are forgetting that there's pretty much nothing out there in the affordable price bracket that provides 10-bit. The EX1/EX3 are the only ones I can think of in the sub-$10k price bracket that have 10-bit output.

I agree Barry. 4:2:2 in the AF100 would be really nice. I'm frankly a bit disappointed in the color produced by the AF100. Unless there is plenty of light the color is quite "thin" in my opinion. My 170 handles color better I think, much richer picture overall. Any advice on getting better color from the AF100?