DVX100B and horrible reds
- Thread starter janekfr
- Start date
PaPa
Major Contributor
scharky said:
After reading threads about the horrible reads, i went into premier pro, shot all sorts of reds and watched them on playback, and even burned them to dvd.
the reds were as pure and clean as any other color that was captured.
this must be a problem with final cut pro, ill continue this in that section if no solution is found.
Question: When you applly this chroma blur? Are you not effecting the rest of the image? I dont want to degrade or maniuplate the rest of my picture if just the reds are bothering me, there must be a solution because the fact remains that this issue was never an issue on premier pro. therefor it cannot simply be said as a cause of the 4:1:1 or dv compression.
Joshua Provost
Veteran
Guys, this is the classic problem with the DV 4:1:1 color space. It is not just reds. You can also see it in blues and other colors that have a heavy red or blure component to them. If the color is highly saturated and in a high contrast area, you will see this.
Remember, the 1 color channels in 4:1:1 are red and blue difference channel. There is very little data recorded for these channels, this the blockiness. The analog nature of tube TV sets (even ones with digital inputs, there is a certain anlogness to spraying rays at the tube) provides an inherent blur so you don't see it as apparant on playback, but you will see it during editing.
This isn't necessaryily a "problem" that needs to be "fixed." It is the nature of the DV beast. An uncomrpessed solution, like Andromeda is as a good a solution as you can get. Even if you "fix" it in your DV footage, when you encode to DV, you will go back to a limited colorspace (4:2:0 for MPEG-2), and you will again have chroma blockiness, though with a slightly different character to it.
That being said, for many of my projects, I do use Magic Bullet deartifacting, which is a more time-consuming alternative to a simple chroma blur. This gets some detail back so the problem isn't compounded by the DV->DVD encoding.
Remember, the 1 color channels in 4:1:1 are red and blue difference channel. There is very little data recorded for these channels, this the blockiness. The analog nature of tube TV sets (even ones with digital inputs, there is a certain anlogness to spraying rays at the tube) provides an inherent blur so you don't see it as apparant on playback, but you will see it during editing.
This isn't necessaryily a "problem" that needs to be "fixed." It is the nature of the DV beast. An uncomrpessed solution, like Andromeda is as a good a solution as you can get. Even if you "fix" it in your DV footage, when you encode to DV, you will go back to a limited colorspace (4:2:0 for MPEG-2), and you will again have chroma blockiness, though with a slightly different character to it.
That being said, for many of my projects, I do use Magic Bullet deartifacting, which is a more time-consuming alternative to a simple chroma blur. This gets some detail back so the problem isn't compounded by the DV->DVD encoding.
scharky
Veteran
Chroma blur does not affect the overall resolution of the image, and only affects the offending colors. Maybe for some reason the codec that you are capturing into premiere with uses a chroma blur on it already, like the avid codec. But all mini dv will have this problem if no chroma blur is applied to it.
Yes, it's a problem with DV in general. If you can't see the problem in Premiere Pro, the only possible explanation is that it auto applies chroma blur.
And there you have your answer: Premiere Pro automatically manipulates and degrades each and every one of your frames (and not only the reds), but you PERCEIVE it as an enhancement. Now, that is psychology.
(I prefer a program that shows what I actually have. But it's a bummer that there is no 4:2:0 chroma blur in FCP.)
And there you have your answer: Premiere Pro automatically manipulates and degrades each and every one of your frames (and not only the reds), but you PERCEIVE it as an enhancement. Now, that is psychology.
(I prefer a program that shows what I actually have. But it's a bummer that there is no 4:2:0 chroma blur in FCP.)
FiddlerMD
Well-known member
TheAnimal - I dont think you're right in that assumption. I took a red-heavy clip from premiere and compared it side-by-side with the output of the captured AVI through a few media players (windows, vlc, media player classic). They all looked identical. I really dont think premiere is applying any effects (not to mention it's so slow that if it did you'd know 
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Categorically its there when you take it into Premiere also but for some reason your not seeing it, could be anything, the premiere pro 2 codec, maybe your pc monitor is applying some kind of pixel smoothing.PaPa said:
That said I have used the Natress Chroma blur filter and the results are nothing short of excellent. I did a test, sorry dont have the clips anymore, I had a small fire from a candle burning in the centre of the frame, the candle was in a red pot. After applying the Natress filter the original blockiness was gone and the rest of the frame appeared to be clan and unaffected.
especially since Graeme Nattress frequents these forums quite often.
TheAnimal said:
I have the film effects set, I had Boris Continuum when I was using premiere pro... Nattress is cheaper and gives me the same value IMO.
Joshua Provost
Veteran
FiddlerMD said:TheAnimal - I dont think you're right in that assumption. I took a red-heavy clip from premiere and compared it side-by-side with the output of the captured AVI through a few media players (windows, vlc, media player classic). They all looked identical. I really dont think premiere is applying any effects (not to mention it's so slow that if it did you'd know
Don't forget that Premiere or any other player has to resize to correct for pixel aspect ratios (4:3 and 16:9, both need to be resized for viewing). So, unless you take it into After Effects where PAR correction is off by default, you're never seeing pixel-for-pixel.