DVCPro HD good for Aquisistion, But not Post?

[Barry_Green]

Are we talking about 60i or 60P here?

Both. In 1080 or 480, we're talking about 60i. In 720, it's accomplished with 60p. There is, of course, no 60i in 720. The reality look is gotten with 60p.

Worse than that silly dancing dogs one? :grin:

Yes, you're right. I was in a mood that day. I apologize for going off the deep end, to you and to everyone else. And yes, the silly dancing dogs was an extreme exaggeration. Guilty...

Well, if it's like the DVX100 lens, it won't be 95%. Not according to my standards.

The DVX100 lens is also not 95% by my standards either. The DVX100A was a good improvement, but it's not there. It's far superior to the other cameras with their servo rings, and I find it usable, but it could be better. The HVX should deliver the missing components -- even better focus feel, and true ft and inches distance markings (just in the VF, not on the barrel). That's where I'm getting the guess of 95%, based on the progress that's been promised from the already-very-good DVX lens.

But if you think the DVX lens is a 95%, well, you won't throw the HVX in the trash. I guess it's just different standards. For me, not being stuck with one lens, not being stuck with a forever spinning focus ring and not being stuck without a physical iris doesn't account for 5 points only.

The DVX is not to that degree, no. In my opinion it crosses the line from "infuriating" to "completely usable". That doesn't put it up in the "exquisite" category, no... but it's usable. The DVX100A upgrades pushed it up to "nice". I expect the HVX changes to get it to the 95% mark. But, as always, it is a matter of personal preference.

 

[Barry_Green]

but that doesnt mean the CCDs are scanning and outputting at 60p. so if i understand the math correctly here, your basically doubling 30p frames at best.
someone please correct me if im wrong.. im a little tired yet this morning so i might not be thinking straight yet.

From what I saw on the live monitors, it looks like it definitely outputs genuine 60p on the analog outputs. Also, the description of the "motion smoothing" filter seems to say that it samples at 60p, then blends frames together for recording at 30p.

So it seems to be that the chips are definitely 60p chips. The limiting factor appears to be the MPEG encoder; apparently the MPEG encoder cannot handle a data rate faster than 30p. So to tape, and to firewire, and to hard disk, you get 30p. But on the analog outputs, prior to MPEG compression, you do get the full 60p "reality" look.

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry you and I agree and are pretty much saying the same thing. Well this was the long road to agree in the end.

<snip>

Barry we agree, and from now on we are friends here, and when we meet one day we will get along just the same because we don't have one reason not to get along!

Michael Pappas

Michael, THANK YOU for being so gracious! I have apologized to others, you were next on my list to apologize to. I have been battling a cold for a couple of days, and it decidedly made me cranky -- I can see, looking back on my posts the last couple of days, I was definitely "testier" than I've ever been on these forums. You have demonstrated class in letting that slide, and I very much appreciate it. Thank you!

 

[PappasArts]

Hi Barry! Sorry to read you have been sick.

Barry can I make a suggestion:

Drink green tea. It will help. I was born into a health family, vitamins etc, before I was born. The things I had to take as a kid, eehhh! My dad was involved in the earlery Jacklalane* days. So I kinda got thrown into it.

Ask Chris Hurd or even Bob Jones of Skycrane. I'm always giving them suggestions to help them when there under the weather. What you need is green tea, honey and lemon juice. I am lucky that I never get sick, but friends around me do, so they always ask for suggestions.

We drink green tea daily here, so the strong taste is not noticeable. But the recipe here is for when your sick or if you believe that your coming down with something.

Green tea is a remarkable substance, it's therapeutic role is very powerful Barry. The Polyphenols and flavonoids to name two elements in green tea will dramatically increase antioxidant levels to aid your white blood cell count in keeping your immune system strong. Especially Polyphenols, this substance can help increase the white blood cell count which is responsible for fighting infection in our bodies.

---
Recipe:
Almost any green will do Barry. Good Earth brand or Yogi, I recommend for off the shelf. Trader Joe's or even grocery stores will have this. But any brand will do.

It's important that you steep the green tea for a minuim of 6 minutes in water that's boiled or is at-least is piping hot. One bag is fine, but I recommend two if your stomach can take it.

Add the natural honey after that, no sooner then six minutes. Longer is better here. The reason is, the honey will clog the fine netting of the tea bag and impede the steeping process and nearly stop the flava-noids and Polyphenols volumes releasing from the green tea leaves into the water.

Then add a teaspoon of lemon juice after that. Both lemon and honey have properties that are good for immune as well gastrol processing etc. Estenial aiding in our bodies attempt to get rid of toxins that slow down the healing process.

Also drink a minimum of 20 ounces. 12 ounces is fine, but the more your body gets aided in toxicity removal the better your immune system can reach it's optimal functional foundation.



A caffeine note:
Green tea does contains caffeine, but the amounts are about 5 to 45mg. Not much, unless you suffer from extreme things like hypertension, heart palpitations, tinitus. But these levels, i believe are still to low. The levels do depend on the steep time, water temperature and the leafs used too. Still, that's only about 1/3 of a cup of coffee. Good news is, decaffeinated green tea offers the same polyphenols, flavonoids etc needed.

I do believe caffeine can play a positive role in other areas as increasing blood flow and forcing urine production which along with green tea cleanses the body of harmful toxins faster from your body. But again decafe if needed is just as good.



Sorry for all this, I can get a little carried away. Science/health is just one of my hobies and I get a little into it sometimes.

Back to our original programming everyone.



Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/ARRFILMS
www.PappasArts.com

 

[PappasArts]

Hi Noah! Sorry I missed your post, it was buried in all the posts. I have worked with Varicam more then a few times. Sony HD the most and started since the late eighties in one degree or another. I didn't mean for it to ring the alarm bell. Varicam will do well; I just wanted to get a conversation going on postproduction workflows where masters of the final work are at the highest level.

Of course this problem is easy to solve if you throw enough capital at it. I have had a two-year major slowdown because of my farther, who's my main priority in life right now since his brain Aneurysm and my mom’s death, his wife after his Aneurysm . Anyway, just wanted to discuss other ways to preserve DVCproHD in very complex post work.

Noah, do you have any process to share that works for you or even ideas?


Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/ARRFILMS
PappasArts.com

Michael- have you ever shot on a Varicam and edited from a 1200A deck in DVCPROHD? Have you then compared this output to the same edit off an uncompressed system? It would help to establish your credibility on this subject. If not, why sound alarms over something you don't really know about?

 

[thisiswells]

Good Conversation

Good Conversation

I just wanted to get a conversation going on postproduction workflows where masters of the final work are at the highest level.

I enjoy productive conversations, too.

In 2003, I edited two VariCam-originated projects. (Pre-1200A, SD downconvert, edit FCP3, release DVD)
I think most people working now would prefer the HD-over-Firewire approach and would cut in camera-original codec in FCP4/5 because of simplicity and because really it looks good enough.

Of course this problem is easy to solve if you throw enough capital at it.

As true in many things, you pay a lot for "an extra 10%"

brian wells

 

[ChuckS]

I enjoy productive conversations, too.

I think most people working now would prefer the HD-over-Firewire approach and would cut in camera-original codec in FCP4/5 because of simplicity and because really it looks good enough. brian wells

I guess that depends on what you think good enough is and what's the deliverable. I have not been impressed with the images from the FCP and DVCProHD workflow. With the release of FCP5 at NAB and Motion 2 now being 16bit it will be interesting to see if Apple stays with the DVCProHD codec in post or converts to a 10bit workflow after capture.

 

[ArkhamFilms]

I have not been impressed with the images from the FCP and DVCProHD workflow.

Hmmm, I thought the 3D presentation of Varicam footage, cut on FCP that was presented at NAB was very impressive.

-CJ

 

[thisiswells]

As did I.

 

[araujofh]

Man, I love this forum.

We finally came to a conclusion. It's good to see you guys in peace again.

All the best

Fidel.

 

[PappasArts]

Here are some people that shot varicam and and used Tiff to maintain the higest level but at a low cost.

article: http://millimeter.com/e-newsletters/HD_Focus_4_26_05/

From article:
<<<<Bigelow says the reason for this approach was to avoid the need to offline and the need for an HD conform, while keeping the media at the highest possible resolution in an affordable way. >>>>

 

[Graeme_Nattress]

Or they could have used an uncompressed codec that their DI facility understands, or DPX Cineon or whatever.

I'm now researching the Silicon Color Final Touch HD solution for mac, which integrates nicely with FCP, and will do 32bit colour correction to a very professional level at an affordable price. I'm working on writing some cool plugins for it as well and I might even get to the point of doing DV (DVCpro50, DVCProHD) artifact removal which would help even further, and I've got a great idea on getting 11bit performance from 8bit video that I can't wait to try out.....

Graeme

 

[Antoine_Fabi]

hey Graeme !

no limits !
It would look like "first generation analog HD without noise" he he...

seriously, that would be fantastic !
Do you think the render time would be reasonable with a G5 dual 2.5 ?

 

[Graeme_Nattress]

Render? Should be very close to real time as it's all done on the GPU. Just learning GPU programming now and it's fun. I should be able to do similar stuff for Motion 2, as soon as I can get the SDK for that.

Graeme

 

[Anders Holck]

Graeme, regarding the Sillicon Color solution. I have the demo version, but currently waiting for my X800 so I can try it out. Can you elaborate on thee Q's:

- Regarding XML interchange, how does it translate and effects and compositing done inside FCP. Does it keep all of it (Even the things that can't be seen inside FinalTouch) when reimported in FCP. Can you comment on the procedure?

- How fast is the Final Render Pass. I guess it cant be realtime as the memory transfer over the bus, combined with the disk writes. How does it compare?

Thanks.

 

[Graeme_Nattress]

I've not used it enough yet to answer, and I'm also waiting on a x800....

From what I'm told, the program extracts all the info it needs from the XML, and basically remembers all the stuff it doesn't need, so that when the XML goes back out, it puts back all the stuff it didn't need, so that everything gets preserved. That's the theory, but I've not tried it in practise.

Render times are pretty fast, and you're right that they're mostly limited by the AGP buss. They did some 2k renders at NAB and you could see it fly along at a few frames per second, like slow playback, a little under half speed. You can make it run slower or faster depending on the complexity of the effects you add.

I'll be in a position to tell you more when I've had a proper chance to play, but really, I've just been learning their SDK for the plugins so far.

Graeme

 

[bilgami]

Hard Drive

Hard Drive

[font=&quot]BiLGaMi Video Productions[/font][font=&quot] :beer:[/font]

On one of the postings somewhere in here someone posted a site that showed a possible hard drive that may work with 200. The site pictured a Sony cam with the hard drive mounted on the handle shoe mount if this rings a bell for any could you plz repost the link plz. thank you[font=&quot]
[/font]

[font=&quot]bilgami@hotmail.com
http://www.bilgamivideo.com[/font]