Dual Audio System - I Want Auto Gain Control

What you are looking for is made by Dan Dugan. It's an auto-mixer. It was more designed to deal with a situation where you have a panel of folks all miced and want to shut down the unused ones but it will do what you want. However it is $$$$.

However that is generally a bad way to deal with it. A good mixer and a proper post will do much better for you.
 
The sound devices 788T has an auto mixing feature. I've yet to try it out, and once again a good chunk of change.

The sad part whether audio, camera, or any other dept, is when someone thinks they can purchase a piece of equipment and suddenly
their problems are solved. The piece of gear is the least of the issues compared to the talent running that gear.

I would much rather have an experienced, talented gaffer lighting for me with a bunch of work lights than someone with 1 year experience w/ a full grip/lighting truck.
Same goes for camera, same goes for make up, same goes for ..

Nothing of this is new or original, nor do I see it this attitude changing anytime soon for the majority of newer folks to the business.
 
Rippie said:
The sad part whether audio, camera, or any other dept, is when someone thinks they can purchase a piece of equipment and suddenly their problems are solved.
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The part that everyone is overlooking is that the OP's problems were already solved by a piece of gear, a camera with decent AGC, which is going away for other reasons. There is no need for more people here, the issue is a gear issue.

There are mountains being made of molehills here.
 
Lloyds said:
Thanks. That's right. It's been working every week for 2 years.
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Maybe it was my interweeb connection acting up but if the video in Vimeo you linked to is any indication, it hasn't been working very well. I found it very rough and hard to listen to due to the volume changes. Yes, it was understandable for the most part and if that's your criteria for "working" then I guess you succeded. But IMHO it could have been much smoother.
 
Using a compressor is a WAY better choice than using AGC... but they do need to be set up correctly, and it may be different for each child...
 
nothing said:
The part that everyone is overlooking is that the OP's problems were already solved by a piece of gear, a camera with decent AGC, which is going away for other reasons. There is no need for more people here, the issue is a gear issue.

There are mountains being made of molehills here.
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Sorry I should have been more clear.
I was replying to the overall thread not just the OP.
 
Lloyd,

Doc has been very patient with your, "I want it my way." attitude. He's dead on, but you keep coming back with the, "Yeah, buts."

Take the faces out of the equation. It's not opinion, Doc's quoting physics. There is a right and a wrong in physics. Physics is like that.

Try this, pretend he's right. Go in that direction without sabotaging the effort. You don't have to do it forever. It's not a lifetime commitment.

If it were me, I wouldn't even take the job as mixer if offered simply because, if I'm reading you correctly, you want it your way regardless of science, and when it doesn''t work out, you'll be there to blame me.

Doc's probably too nice a guy to put it to you this way, but life is too short. :)

Best Regards,

Ty Ford

PS: I'm not just a Doom Saying soundie. I shoot, light and edit.
 
tyreeford said:
If it were me, I wouldn't even take the job as mixer if offered simply because, if I'm reading you correctly, you want it your way regardless of science, and when it doesn''t work out, you'll be there to blame me.
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Good. Cuz I'm not offering you or anyone a job, so don't worry about it. :love4:
 
tyreeford said:
Lloyd,

Doc has been very patient with your, "I want it my way." attitude. He's dead on, but you keep coming back with the, "Yeah, buts."

Take the faces out of the equation. It's not opinion, Doc's quoting physics. There is a right and a wrong in physics. Physics is like that.

Try this, pretend he's right. Go in that direction without sabotaging the effort. You don't have to do it forever. It's not a lifetime commitment.

If it were me, I wouldn't even take the job as mixer if offered simply because, if I'm reading you correctly, you want it your way regardless of science, and when it doesn''t work out, you'll be there to blame me.

Doc's probably too nice a guy to put it to you this way, but life is too short. :)

Best Regards,

Ty Ford

PS: I'm not just a Doom Saying soundie. I shoot, light and edit.
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Nice to see you contributing here again Tye. Shame you missed out on that job with Lloyd.

Grant
 
Lloyds said:
Good. Cuz I'm not offering you or anyone a job, so don't worry about it. :love4:
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You can't really expect praise from sound folks for actually trying for low quality.

Here is the easy solution, just record the sound on the camera that works for you. That is free and so should fit your budget. And is probably the only thing that does what you want.

Physics (in general) isn't a hard answer field but unfortunately for you you are basically dealing with Newtonian physics so effectively it is black and white for your purposes.

You are not going to find a stand alone AGC (probably) because they don't sound good. The Dan Dugan item I mentioned is an "auto mixer" which after reading all of this won't do what you want. A compressor used very aggressively probably will do what you want.

I don't recommend that route but it is an answer to your question.

What you want to do is not good practice and does not produce good results. It seems that it has worked well enough to not get you fired and that may be as high as you aspire. But getting by and "good" are not synonymous.

I don't think you would have gotten the reaction you did if it sounded like you realized the level of compromise you were making. WE all have at times done things we would not have done if time, budget etc. had allowed the better option. But it's a bad sign when one looses site of the compromise and starts acting like it's the "right" choice.

Your probably not ready to hear it but you have been given a chance to up your game and you are fighting it. Shouldn't you instead be asking how you can make your work better, instead of fighting to keep it where it is?

Anyway get a compressor and squeeze the hell out of the sound and you can probably get the whispers to be just as loud as the laughter.
 
Noiz2 said:
I don't recommend that route but it is an answer to your question..
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Finally, someone who can read and answer a very simple question. Thank you for your input! You're saying "you're 100% wrong with what you want to do, but if you want to do it, this is a suggestion!" THANK YOU!
 
Lloyds said:
Finally, someone who can read and answer a very simple question. Thank you for your input! You're saying "you're 100% wrong with what you want to do, but if you want to do it, this is a suggestion!" THANK YOU!
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Now how about you answering a couple of very simple questions yourself ... Why would anyone set out intentionally to make a mediocre-sounding production? Because that's essentially what you have said you want to do, you know it can be better but you don't want it to do what it takes to take it to that level. Do you so devalue your own message that you just don't care whether it's presented in a competent and professional manner? Remember, the audience will judge the importance of the message you want to convey by what they perceive to be the level of effort you put into making its sound and images as close to perfect as you can possibly make them. They may not have clue WHY it doesn't sound as good as their favorite sitcom or be paying any attention at all to the production values but they'll absolutely notice subliminally when it's not up to par and will judge its worth accordingly. Impression is everything. If you're not going to do everything humanly possible to make it better than the alternative messages your audience is receiving, don't even bother.
 
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Lloyds said:
Now we are getting rid of the EX1s altogether and going with Canon DSLRs exclusively.

We have played around with our Zoom H4N and have gotten decent results, but it's not a perfect solution for our scenario--at least with our current settings.

The problem is it's a kids show. The kids CONSTANTLY get loud (e.g. laughing) and then very quiet when mumbling. We often record 8 kids at a time--each with a lav mic.

We shoot with the Sony EX1R and run the audio into there and turn on the auto gain control and it would boost the low areas and cap the loud areas. It was working perfectly.

The Zoom's auto controller doesn't work the same way. It seems to cap the loud parts, but never adjusts back up when there's whispering.

I'm looking for an AUTOMATIC gain control solution to our situation that goes UP AND DOWN when needed. I do NOT want 8 audio guys adjusting the gain manually on 8 kids.

80% of our work is studio based, so I don't mind recording directly to a computer through a mixer/limiter of some sort. Not sure if that's an option.

Any suggestions?
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Given that you don't want to get more people involved, I think I can understand why you want to have your familiar AGC back after your video cameras have been replaced with DSLRs. But I think your problem is in essence about how to deal with sudden loud sounds (or unpredictable clippings of audio signals), not about having to find certain AGC solution.

I think everyone who has seriously tried to take photo, video and audio recordings of (young) kids must have run into the same or similar problem (that kids don't or just can't always follow instructions) and must have managed to meet the challenges one way or the other. In your case, if I may, I'd give you two suggestions as food for thought (my 2c based on personal experience):

1) split audio input signals and record each input onto 2 audio tracks with 2 different level settings, in the hope that in the case of excessively loud sounds, 1 of the tracks may be able to capture the sound with no clippings. After I talked to a B&H salesperson in New York, I don't think I will want to go the input splitting route, tho I didn't fully understand his explanation.

2) in addition to lavs (or whatever mics already in use), add at least 1 extra mic (of a different type) for some or all of the kids, in the hope that if an existing mic is overloaded, you may still be able to get non-clipped audio recordings with the extra mic(s). As the recordings from the extra mics are used in post typically only if other recordings are clipped, you probably can easily get away with relatively low-quality recordings from the extra mics, which might allow you to continue with your existing setup and avoid the cost of hiring a pro sound person.

The net result: If audio is not about to be clipped, you would get the result you already consider satisfactory. If audio is about to be clipped (ruined), you would get 1 or more audio tracks to bail you out in post. And you would not have to hire someone else to do that for you.
 
Hey gg,

Thanks for the shout out. I've been pretty busy since last october and each day goes by quickly. Re: Lloyd, bless him - It's a square peg round hole issue. It won't be the first time someone found out they don't make what he's looking for, or if they do he can't afford (or tolerate) it.

I've used automixers. I have a Shure FP410 which is a dandy piece, but even an automixer has certain limitations. Whomever said AGC is a bad choice, is right, I think. I'm not sure a compressor is either, but a bunch of good limiters could help. Bottom line, you still need a person to get the best out of any piece of gear.

This is a mindset that I see people bump up against a lot. The thought that they need to bring in another human to do something to make a project work better certainly has repercussions. Which human? How does one find the right person? I have to PAY them? I'm a one person shop. I know what that feels like, but I was hired to produce a trailer for an unshot film script a few years back. Yes, I could have muddled my way through it, but instead, I hired a shooter, lighter, and director (all of whom I knew, btw). I did sound and post. I know I wouldn't have gotten the same results if I tried to do it all myself. Here's a link to it, btw: http://www.hotflashmovie.com/ We actually won several first place awards in indie film festivals with it. Again, not possible had I done it myself.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
The FMR "Really Nice Compressor" (RNC 1773) has a reputation for sounding MUCH MUCH better than its $200 price tag would imply.
Read some of the reviews and testimonials they post. There are many more that they could have shared. On the rec.audio.pro newsgroup, the RNC has a cult-like following and there are claims that it was inserted into the main mix path during mastering of some very famous albums.

You would need one per channel. While it is 2-channel ("stereo"), the channels are tied together and don't compress independently. Highly recommended...

http://www.fmraudio.com/rnc.htm
 
tyreeford said:
Hey gg,

Thanks for the shout out. I've been pretty busy since last october and each day goes by quickly. Re: Lloyd, bless him - It's a square peg round hole issue. It won't be the first time someone found out they don't make what he's looking for, or if they do he can't afford (or tolerate) it.

I've used automixers. I have a Shure FP410 which is a dandy piece, but even an automixer has certain limitations. Whomever said AGC is a bad choice, is right, I think. I'm not sure a compressor is either, but a bunch of good limiters could help. Bottom line, you still need a person to get the best out of any piece of gear.

This is a mindset that I see people bump up against a lot. The thought that they need to bring in another human to do something to make a project work better certainly has repercussions. Which human? How does one find the right person? I have to PAY them? I'm a one person shop. I know what that feels like, but I was hired to produce a trailer for an unshot film script a few years back. Yes, I could have muddled my way through it, but instead, I hired a shooter, lighter, and director (all of whom I knew, btw). I did sound and post. I know I wouldn't have gotten the same results if I tried to do it all myself. Here's a link to it, btw: http://www.hotflashmovie.com/ We actually won several first place awards in indie film festivals with it. Again, not possible had I done it myself.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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Tye,

I often work solo and buck up against audio whenever I do. For me, the important part when going solo is to keep complete control of the scene. Don't try to do too much; keep the talent from moving around much, ask them to not scream or become excessively animated, etc. If you can't control the situation or you need more movement, it's time to bring in some help. "A man has to know his limitations".

Grant
 
I know the new Zaxcom Nomad and I *think* the new firmware update for the Sound Devices 788 have a sort of "automix" feature to them. It's not AGC, if I remember correctly, but both of these machines can handle lots of ones and zeros, so they might be worth looking into, but again, you need someone to use them, unless you are capable of being able to set them up, and the start and stop them each take yourself.
 
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