Dual Audio System - I Want Auto Gain Control

[Lloyds]

I need suggestions for audio recording. I know the boards are full of threads, but I haven't found a thread that covers our exact situation. Hope you can help steer us in the right direction.

We currently record a kids show in a 5-cam multi-cam studio environment. We have been using the Sony EX1R for our main multi-cam and using the 7D and 5Dm2 for our "money shots." All the audio has been run into the EX1Rs--done deal, no problem.

Now we are getting rid of the EX1s altogether and going with Canon DSLRs exclusively.

We have played around with our Zoom H4N and have gotten decent results, but it's not a perfect solution for our scenario--at least with our current settings.

The problem is it's a kids show. The kids CONSTANTLY get loud (e.g. laughing) and then very quiet when mumbling. We often record 8 kids at a time--each with a lav mic.

We shoot with the Sony EX1R and run the audio into there and turn on the auto gain control and it would boost the low areas and cap the loud areas. It was working perfectly.

The Zoom's auto controller doesn't work the same way. It seems to cap the loud parts, but never adjusts back up when there's whispering.

I'm looking for an AUTOMATIC gain control solution to our situation that goes UP AND DOWN when needed. I do NOT want 8 audio guys adjusting the gain manually on 8 kids.

80% of our work is studio based, so I don't mind recording directly to a computer through a mixer/limiter of some sort. Not sure if that's an option.

Any suggestions?

 

[Doc Bernard]

Hard to read post.

The problem is, you have gotten to a point of where you WILL have to invest in higher level gear, and sound professionals, IMO. One way this might be accomplished is an outboard stereo limiter/compressor. There are many models to choose from, and sadly, in that type of audio gear, you get what you pay for. I have used the UA, Manley, and a few others.

So your set up would look this way: inputs, mixer, stereo limiter, recording device. Are you recording discrete channels for each input? If so, then for 8 inputs you will need 4 stereo limiters. A good set mix engineer will be able to knock a lot of the clips out, and the limiter/compressor puts the finishing touches on it or catches what they miss. But if you are not, a single stereo unit will suffice.

But trying to simply replace good ears with technology doesn't usually end well. You need a good engineer to set up the limiters properly and someone to send it a quality signal. A limiter is manually set, and not automatic.

Sorry, if that come's off harsh, but it sounds like you are coming and asking a bunch of audio guys "hey, how do I replace you with some equipment".

Think of it like using AGC on your iris and leaving the focus alone during your shoots on a static tripod. Would you do that? Trying to freewheel sound is the same thing. It's not "set and forget". You may have had some okay results, but if you had some qualified people dedicated to sound, you would get a huge improvement on your results.

 

[davefisk]

I agree with Doc. You won't need 8 audio people, just one. However, you will need to invest in the proper audio equipment to get the job done right. There is a reason people don't use automixers.

 

[Doc Bernard]

Can you imagine the howling and spitting that would occur if I asked the forum "Hey, I need a device that automatically focuses, frames, sets the stop, pans/tilts my cameras? I am shooting a bunch of dynamic subjects at once, but I don't want a bunch of camera operators fiddling with the cameras during the shoot".

Llyods, that's exactly what you just asked of sound professionals. Not trying to flame you, but you have to understand what you asked and who you asked it of.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Can you imagine the howling and spitting that would occur if I asked the forum "Hey, I need a device that automatically focuses, frames, sets the stop, pans/tilts my cameras? I am shooting a bunch of dynamic subjects at once, but I don't want a bunch of camera operators fiddling with the cameras during the shoot".

Llyods, that's exactly what you just asked of sound professionals.

I've been looking for that for years... and while we're at it, a programing language consisting of 2 words... "Do It!"... just get it done and tell me when the money is in the bank...

But alas...

 

[Lloyds]

Can you imagine the howling and spitting that would occur if I asked the forum "Hey, I need a device that automatically focuses, frames, sets the stop, pans/tilts my cameras? I am shooting a bunch of dynamic subjects at once, but I don't want a bunch of camera operators fiddling with the cameras during the shoot".

Llyods, that's exactly what you just asked of sound professionals. Not trying to flame you, but you have to understand what you asked and who you asked it of.

In my opinion, recording audio and video are apples and oranges. I know the audio guys will totally disagree, but that would be expected. I guess what I'm asking is not what is the "right" way to do this in an ideal world, but how I can accomplish this my way. Not being sassy or anything, but I know the best way is to hire an entire production crew and have 100 people working on it. We can't. So I appreciate the suggestions on how to get it done the way I asked, which, specifically is, how can I get AUTOMATIC (not person-controlled) gain control while recording--be it right or wrong in your opinion.

I've been working this way for 2 years and it has worked pretty well. There've been plenty of times I wish I had an audio guy on top of the recording, but with some post-production compression, etc., we've managed just fine and have saved a ton of money in the process.. Maybe not 100% perfect, but I'll take 95% if it means saving $200 per day (which is $4000 per month as this is an ongoing program).

I don't mind investing in high-end gear. I'm just soliciting ideas as to what gear would suit our needs best.

Thanks for your replies thus far. Much appreciated!

 

[Doc Bernard]

You don't need 100 people. You need one. A good sound guy with the right gear.

There is no equipment to replace their talent. I understand you're wanting to save money, but in turn you want to pay more money for high end gear that takes an engineer to run properly in the first place? You will be throwing good money away, when the simple solution is do the right thing and get the right person. There is no "magic box" with XLR cables in and perfect sound out.

If the results of what you showed is "good enough", I would be curious why you are getting rid of the EX-1's? Stick with what works. Going to DSLR's seems to be creating more problems that you are not willing to overcome the right way.

So I appreciate the suggestions on how to get it done the way I asked, which, specifically is, how can I get AUTOMATIC (not person-controlled) gain control while recording--be it right or wrong in your opinion.

AGC and on-board mics on the camera.

EDIT: As to audio and video being "apples and oranges", yes one is observed with the eyes, the other, the ears. But quality in both needs to be approached with the same level of professionalism. And not just audio guys understand this. Any production company that does anything with sound in it, knows this. You saying what you did, that they are not the same, shows exactly why you are asking the question. Sound and video are inherently intertwined, and either side can bring the level of overall quality down.

 

[Terry_Lasater]

Doc speaks the truth.

 

[Lloyds]

Going to DSLR's seems to be creating more problems that you are not willing to overcome the right way.

Doc, I appreciate your response. I understand where you're coming from. But "right" needs to incorporate many factors. If I were taking an exam at film school, I'd mark the same box you're advocating. I'm not asking what you consider to be the "right" or "best" way. If I were, my answer would be the same as yours.

But to dogmatically state something as "right" or "wrong" outside of a text-book environment, one would need to consider the myriad of other factors that incorporate a decision--e.g. location of facilities vs. location of qualified help being the main one. In our particular case we are nowhere close to a large metropolis. There might be 4 video guys in a 250-mile radius.

For a 15-minute shoot and to follow your playbook, it would cost us $400 for a plane ticket, $250 for labor, $100 hotel, and $50 for food and $200 in gas and labor to pick up and return the audio guy to/from the airport. That's $1000 for 15-minutes worth of shooting for a 501c3 non-profit show--read NON-PROFIT show. For us, what's obviously "right" is to NOT bring in a sound guy. Then considering we shoot 4 of these a month with different people that come in from out of state, we would have to bring this guy up 4 different times, "right" becomes even more clear.

Hence my question was NOT what the community considers "right," but how to get AGC using a Zoom H4N or other device(s). If you know, that's the info I'm looking for.

Thanks again, Doc (and others)!

 

[Doc Bernard]

If you are in Phoenix, reach out to Paul Hudson here on DVX. I believe he is in Phoenix too (Lizardland Video). He will know guys in your area. That might fix the issues.

 

[Lloyds]

If you are in Phoenix, reach out to Paul Hudson here on DVX. He will know guys in your area. That might fix the issues.

Opps, yeah, I USED to be in Phx. Not any more. I need to change that in my profile. Now I'm WAY out in the woods. Hence my dilemma. Not the best place to be if you need video/audio help.

 

[Steve House]

...I know the best way is to hire an entire production crew and have 100 people working on it. We can't. So I appreciate the suggestions on how to get it done the way I asked, which, specifically is, how can I get AUTOMATIC (not person-controlled) gain control while recording--be it right or wrong in your opinion.

...

I don't mind investing in high-end gear. I'm just soliciting ideas as to what gear would suit our needs best.

Thanks for your replies thus far. Much appreciated!

You don't need high-end gear and you don't need 100 people to run it. You DO need a proper mixing desk such as one of the Mackie compact mixers (a 16 channel desk with 10 mic inputs will run $700, hardly in the high-end realm) and ONE person who knows what they're doing to run it. If you can't afford to bring in an expert from out of town, have you considered training up somone alkready on your production team to fill that role? It''s a skill that can be learned.

 

[Steve House]

In my opinion, recording audio and video are apples and oranges. I know the audio guys will totally disagree, but that would be expected. I guess what I'm asking is not what is the "right" way to do this in an ideal world, but how I can accomplish this my way.. !

Automatic audio level controls are the equivalent of relying on autofocus, auto exposure, and auto white balance when shooting video. Your attitude towards "audio guys" is frankly offensive, suggesting that it's just a load BS, a con to secure their employment at jobs that actually aren't necessary, when they suggest it takes as much skill to get proper audio as it does to operate a camera and secure professional quality images.

 

[ggrantly]

Lloyds,

If I read your original post correctly, your workflow was recording audio to a EX1, recoding two channels, which I believe you said you were satisfied with. Why wouldn't most any two track recorder work in its place? Maybe a H4n isn't the right recorder, but there are plenty more out there with better quality and features Like the Tascam HDP2 or 680, or at a higher level, a Sound Devices 702. Not sure how you were mixing many down to two, but apparently you already had this worked out.

If in fact you now need more channels, and are in a studio environment, consider this; I have been working on improving my laptop recording using a Motu Traveller Mk3 (4 phantom channels + others) with a iPad control surface as a mixer. Motu also makes the Mk824 which has 8 phantom channels and uses the same software. Plug it into a laptop, and off you go except for the agc type features which you probably aren't going to get regardless. Atleast the motu stuff has good limiters and preamps.

Grant

 

[Lloyds]

Automatic audio level controls are the equivalent of relying on autofocus, auto exposure, and auto white balance when shooting video. Your attitude towards "audio guys" is frankly offensive, suggesting that it's just a load BS, a con to secure their employment at jobs that actually aren't necessary, when they suggest it takes as much skill to get proper audio as it does to operate a camera and secure professional quality images.

Sorry to offend you. Didn't mean to. Hopefully you can forgive me.

Great idea on the Mackie mixer. Thanks. Just the kind of advise I'm searching for.

Hope everyone can chill out a little bit on here and not be so sensitive. I don't mean any offense to anyone--they are QUESTIONS, not ATTACKS on audio engineers. Perhaps it touches too close to some and they have a hard time separating the two since they are emotionally attached. I can understand that, but believe me, I'm not hiring you or ANYONE anyway, so your current job is just as secure or unsecure. My lowly questions do not affect your work outlook whatsoever.

I run cameras every day. I know the inside and outside of aperture, follow focus, white balance and a million other settings. If someone came on here and asked how to use the the full-auto button to make his videos, what do I care? I wouldn't lecture him on the "right" way to use his camera. If that's the info he wants, I'd give it to him. I wouldn't feel personally attacked because, heaven forbid, he wants to use the full-auto button. I wouldn't feel the least offense. Whatever floats his boat. Hopefully that's not too much to ask. If so, please forgive me.

Oh, and by the way, there are plenty of times for the use of full-auto on a camera. You see it on TV every day.

 

[Lloyds]

Lloyds,

If I read your original post correctly, your workflow was recording audio to a EX1, recoding two channels, which I believe you said you were satisfied with. Why wouldn't most any two track recorder work in its place? Maybe a H4n isn't the right recorder, but there are plenty more out there with better quality and features Like the Tascam HDP2 or 680, or at a higher level, a Sound Devices 702. Not sure how you were mixing many down to two, but apparently you already had this worked out.

If in fact you now need more channels, and are in a studio environment, consider this; I have been working on improving my laptop recording using a Motu Traveller Mk3 (4 phantom channels + others) with a iPad control surface as a mixer. Motu also makes the Mk824 which has 8 phantom channels and uses the same software. Plug it into a laptop, and off you go except for the agc type features which you probably aren't going to get regardless. Atleast the motu stuff has good limiters and preamps.

Grant

Thanks, Grant. I really appreciate the suggestions. That gives me another direction to pursue.

I like the laptop idea. For that matter, why couldn't one use a Mackie firewire mixer and a multi-track editor like Adobe Audition and set up some limiters and compressors? Would those act similarly to the ACG I'm getting out of my EX1s?

 

[Doc Bernard]

You have to understand, lloyd, this is not an attack on you, the same way you weren't belittling what audio tech's and engineers do on set. I hope you understand that. But the feel I got from your posts was that "eh, any monkey can get great audio given the right gear." Which is furthest from the truth. Even with a mixer, you have to have someone ride the faders who knows what they are doing. Telling a PA, with no experience or understanding, to do it is a recipe in disaster.

I have no illusions that what advice I am giving you will land me any job or work with you. People here who are experienced in audio are giving you the advice you asked for, and couldn't care less what your hiring status is. Frankly, at this point, had you asked me I would decline regardless of what was offered. Your perceived attitude towards what it takes to get good results in audio tells me your project is NOT something I would want to take on, I don't have the time to educate on set. So, let's tone it back. We are trying to help you, despite your attitude towards sound guys.

You asked a bunch of professionals their opinions, and you are getting very good experienced responses.

I like the laptop idea. For that matter, why couldn't one use a Mackie firewire mixer and a multi-track editor like Adobe Audition and set up some limiters and compressors? Would those act similarly to the ACG I'm getting out of my EX1s?

Again, who is going to run this system? This is not basic Audio 101 stuff. You need someone who knows what they are doing to give you good results, even with that gear and software. Someone dedicated to that aspect alone. It still won't be set and forget.

 

[nothing]

It seems to me the question boils down to: is there a standalone recorder with AGC as good as that on the Sony EX1r?

I'm guessing from the responses so far that the answer is no, but nobody has really addressed that question. Apparently the H4n isn't the answer, but I'd be surprised if there is no dedicated audio device with AGC equal to a camcorder.

I'd like the know the answer as well.

Yes, we know people do a better job, but people are expensive.

 

[Lloyds]

It seems to me the question boils down to: is there a standalone recorder with AGC as good as that on the Sony EX1r?

Perhaps in trying to explain my situation to evade all the "what are you doing with it" questions actually created more. You hit the nail on the head. That's my question. Not whether it's right or wrong. Is there a recording system (not necessarily stand-alone) with ACG that is as good as the limiters on the EX1R?

Thanks for helping me get focused and asking a very simple question. Perhaps this will help get a more focused answer from the pros on here.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Terry_Lasater]

That question hasn't been directly answered probably because no one here knows the answer to it and/or such a feature doesn't exist.

Here is a B&H article with an overview of some of the "less expensive" digital audio recorders currently on the market. I don't know if you'll glean the information you're looking for from it, but it wouldn't hurt to check it out.